> chat > 2000-8-23

Chat for 2000-8-23 21:00:00

Dale: Early test
Dale left chat session
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changed username to Rich Drushel
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changed username to rich-c
rich-c: greetings, rich
Rich Drushel: Sorry for the delay (putting younger 2 to bed)...BTW, you haven't received your $$$ 'cause I have to go to the post office tomorrow to mail it. It's been hard to catch a break to get there, and I don't want to guess wrong on the postage.
rich-c: have seen your general mailing. Somehow or other the name and URL seem like a put-on
rich-c: right - actually, if you want postal rates, the usps website has them
Rich Drushel: Never thought of that...I'd think they would abhor paper-free information transfer :-)
Rich Drushel: Re: put-on, I did a Google search on the guy's name and E-mail address, and he seems to be a legit Linux developer.
rich-c: I'm sure they do - but they want to sell something so I guess posting the price list is advantageous
rich-c: guess he just has a sense of humour then - which is a welcome attribute
Rich Drushel: The question is, whether it is a well-crafted troll, or a real neat idea...hard to say at this point. But, I suppose HLM-GMK were skeptical when I first showed up on the ADAM Forum of Cleveland Freenet and told them about my EOS disassembly and SB1.x.
moved to room Meeting Place
Rich Drushel: This was before I had heard of the hoodwinking of Dr. Solomon Swift...
changed username to Dale
Dale: Hi all.
rich-c: I think more to the point is, do we want an Adam or a - something else
rich-c: Hi Dale, good to see you
Rich Drushel: Good evening, Dale.
Dale: What's up?
Rich Drushel: Well, I have my own ideas on how to create a genuine "ADAM laptop" depends on the prices of certain components becoming more affordable in the next 6 months or so.
rich-c: Since I am not particularly technically knowledgable (now there's an understatement)
rich-c: there isn't too much I can contribute to the discussion
Rich Drushel: Oh if you knew what I was plotting, you could :-)
Dale: I've been working on a faster search/evade algorithm using dynamic programming.
Dale: I'm using the mysterious CPIR insturction to do most of the work now.
Rich Drushel: Runtime on a 4 MHz Z80?
Rich Drushel: Not too mysterious, Re: CPIR.
Rich Drushel: Fast way to look for string matches.
Dale: Well, I've never had an algorithm that used it before...
Dale: so it was a mystery to me when I would use it, and I've been programming...
Dale: on the Z80 since about 1981.
Rich Drushel: I've seen it *lots* in the software I've disassembled.
Dale: My goal is to have 20 AIs wandering around the maze...
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changed username to james
rich-c: Hi James and good morning
james: morning :)
Dale: at a rate of 15-20 clock increments per second...
james: how's it going?
Rich Drushel: For Richard's benefit, CPIR means ComPare, Increment, and Repeat. It's a way to keep scanning along a list of bytes until you find a match between one in the list and the one you're trying to match.
rich-c: Oh, we've got Dale and Dr. D deep in technics at the moment
Dale: and my previous recursive implementation was taking several seconds for one AI to use...
Dale: and my first dynamic programming implementation took about 2 seconds per AI...
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Rich Drushel: Well, recursions can be unrolled for speed :-)
james: i noticed. sounds like they're talking about a sequential search of some kind.
Rich Drushel: Hello to James in Japan.
james: hello dr d :) how's everything?
Dale: and now it seems like it is pretty much where I need it to be, but I haven't got precice figures yet.
changed username to WBurnside
rich-c: looks like the whole gang is arriving at once
Rich Drushel: Not so bad this week: LEGO robot lab is just about ready for classes next week; by the end of tomorrow, it should be all prepped.
rich-c: Hello to WBurnside
Rich Drushel: If you want to see what it's all about, look at
james: sounds like fun. i'm eagerly awaiting for my students to go back to school so i can get back onto a normal routine.
james: thanks, just grabbed your url.
Rich Drushel: I'm eagerly waiting for my own kids to go back to school so I can get back into a normal routine :-)
rich-c: james, had a chance to follow on those Logo sites yet?
james: :D
Dale: Hiya WBurnside
james: i took a look for a little while and found the japanese site too - thanks!
rich-c: You scared him off, Dale
Rich Drushel: Bya WBurnside...
rich-c: Had myself some rather interesting fun today
james: more gin and tonic? ;)
rich-c: A car pulled into my driveway this afternoon. It's one I hadn't seen for 21 years
moved to room Meeting Place
changed username to WBurnside
rich-c: Ha! Burnside's back - welcome
Dale: Hello.
james: 21 years? a long time.
WBurnside: Hello All!
Dale: The same car?
Rich Drushel: A long-lost relative?
james: morning!
rich-c: It was one of only two samples in North America
Rich Drushel: Or a car that you sold to someone who has kept it all this time?
james: some kind of prototype?
Dale: I guess I've never really needed a fast substring search algorithm before...
rich-c: It was a car I originally bought by mail order then drove for 12 years before selling it
Dale: but it works in a fraction of a second in my implementation.
james: that is weird. what makes this car unique? (or semi-unique i guess)
rich-c: I'll let you try to guess from some specs
Rich Drushel: Probably nobody writing the Coleco software had the CS background to write it recursively :-)
Dale: Richard, it was a kit?
rich-c: Event though it was introduced in 1966, it had rear disc brakes
Rich Drushel: Corvair?
rich-c: It also has fully independent suspension, 4 speed gearbox, 3-litre Heron Head engine, Weber curburetor
Rich Drushel: Nah, that was earlier, I think...
rich-c: And was one of only two models with four seven-inch headlamps
james: so wburnside, where are you from?
Rich Drushel: I never read Car & Driver, so I don't have a clue...
Dale: Hmmm, well I'm mostly lost when it comes to cars.
rich-c: and James is too young
Dale: Have I met you before WBurnside?
james: count me on that one, 1966 is well before my time to have been driving or interested in cars.
rich-c: It's a 1968 Ford (British) Zodiac - if you recall the old Z-Cars tv series, it's the "hero"
Rich Drushel: And it was a kit car?
rich-c: The current owner is restoring it - he brought it down from Peterborough to show me
james: peterborough - my grandmother lives there. heard they had frost last week.
Dale: Hw did you happen to buy it by mail order?
rich-c: And no, it's not a kit car, it's a Ford - about 150,000 were produced
Rich Drushel: But you said there were only 2.
rich-c: He also has the only other Mk.4 Zodiac in North America under restoration
james: north america
Rich Drushel: aha!
Dale: I've been looking around for timing information on the CPIR instruction, but I can't find my favorite reference book since I moved, and ...
rich-c: I got the lust for it in '67 but Ford of Canada wouldn't sell it
rich-c: Finally I got permission to buy it by mail order from Ford of England
Dale: I haven't managed to find any timing info on the Z80 Family Web Site
Rich Drushel: Turn on the flag in Z80ASM+ to show the cycles used for each instruction.
rich-c: So I sent them the cheque and they sent me the car
james: permission? from whom? customs?
Dale: Rich D, do you have any refernces that would list timing info?
Rich Drushel: I can probably lay my hands on my original 1978 Zilog Z80 manual if I dig a little...
rich-c: james: no, Ford of Canda, they had veto rights on all Fords sold for delivery here
james: ouch. at least they were kind enough to let you get it elsewhere.
Dale: Z80ASM+ eh? Well, I'll try it but what does it do with tricky instructions like CPIR?
Dale: If it's not handy don't worry about it for now...
rich-c: yes, and I had a good 12-year run with it, so it worked out well
Dale: I'm sure to find my Z80 reference soon as I've just set up a new book shelf finally.
james: i hope to buy a car next year when i've got my father in law paid off and a little more of the mortgage on the school paid down.
rich-c: james, looks like Dale and Rich are into an area you need to listen up about
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changed username to Rich Drushel
Dale: What kind of work visa do you have? Is it a spouse related one?
james: i noticed. i was "skipping class" :) don't have much brain power today.
Rich Drushel: Sorry, got disconnected...
Rich Drushel: Here is timing info for CPIR:
rich-c: still having buffer faults, Ricvh?
james: dale - i assume you're asking me. i'm here on a spousal visa, which means i can basically do anything within the law but i can't vote
Dale: I see, and yes James it was directed at you.
james: not that voting would make a difference. i've no desire to choose which pig eats from the trough of public money.
rich-c: do you plan to seek landed immigrant status?
Rich Drushel: Case 1: If BC not equal to 0 and A not equal to (HL), 5 M cycles, 21 T states. Case 2: if BC=0 or A=(HL), 4 M cycles, 16 T states.
Rich Drushel: That's it.
Dale: Thanks. I'll note that down.
james: there's an equivalent after some odd years (i think 7) and i may pursue this but i don't think i'd change my citizenship
Rich Drushel: Any others you want while I have the ref book in hand?
rich-c: the Japanese aren't keen on giving citizenship to gaijin anyway, are they?
Rich Drushel: BTW, all the xxIR instructions have the same timing for the 2 cases, BC not equal to 0 and BC=0.
Rich Drushel: xxDR too.
james: no, but that's changed due to the sharp increase in marriages between japanese and non-japanese. despite it's gross financial
james: corruption, it's still a government that serves the people (most of the time)
rich-c: do they allow teh holding of dual citizenship?
Dale: I figured as much, but I don't worry about timing very frequently.
james: no, which is why i wouldn't change my citizenship. children however can maintain dual citizenship with certain countries,
james: canada and the u.s. to name a couple, until they're 22, after which they must decide.
rich-c: actually in Canada you need never decide - that's why I still have dual citizenship
Rich Drushel: Modern CPU tech refs don't even give it, as it's irrelevant, with all the possible caching way to tell how long it will take. The RTOS people don't like that.
Dale: With my sound sample player code, I simply worry about making it efficient, and I generally know the relative costs from half-recalled earlier research.
james: nice. with what other country do you hold citizenship?
rich-c: I was born in the U.S.
Rich Drushel: Richard, I never knew that! (or if I did, I had totally forgotten it)
james: neat. when did you go to canada?
Dale: Just one more CALL Z,label
rich-c: My family moved to Toronto in 1938. My father was Canadian
james: in what part of the u.s were you born?
rich-c: Under Canadian law, I had Canadian citizenship from birth
Rich Drushel: CALL anycondition,nnnn
rich-c: or more accurately from 1947 wyhen the Citizenship Act was passed
james: i'll have to check into that then. i know when my kids are born, i'll have to report it to the embassy.
moved to room Meeting Place
changed username to Rpm
Rich Drushel: Case 1: anycondition is false, 3 M cycles, 10 T states. Case 2: anycondition is true, 5 M cycles, 17 T states.
Rich Drushel: That's it.
rich-c: Hello to rpm - we have someone new
WBurnside: Hello rpm
james: hello rpm. hello wburnside :)
Dale: Actually, for modern CPUs the compiler optimizer people pay big bucks to get the details on how to keep from stalling the pipeline...
rich-c: Burnside and Rpm - fell free to join in the chat anytime
Dale: Hi Rpm.
Dale: I just heard that Watcom (which always seems to have the best optimizers) is going open source.
Rpm changed username to Ron's Grape iMac
rich-c: Burnside, I'm sure you've noticed we often have two-plus threads going at once
Rich Drushel: should be published specs...just like the ridiculous Intel non-disclosure-agreement opcodes.
james: hi grape imac :)
Ron's Grape iMac: From the Pacific Coast where the sun is host.....hiya
WBurnside: Yes I have noticed rich-c
rich-c: Hi Ron welcome in
Dale: Well, Intel doesn't want AMD to steal all of their timing info to give them an edge...
Ron's Grape iMac: can't type tonight.... Rpm indeed
WBurnside: What is the best way to clean the tape drive on the Adam?
Rich Drushel: In my grad school years, I seem to remember everyone saying that gcc was the best one...not sure if that's true now.
Dale: but of course the AMD chips are now working faster for at least floating point than the equivilant Intel.
Ron's Grape iMac: isopropyl alcohol and a qtip for the r/w head
rich-c: The manual says gently applied isopropyl alcohol, I believe
Rich Drushel: Cleaning the ADAM tape drive: I would recommend the same method as for an audio tape deck--Q-tips and isopropyl alcohol. How about the rest of you?
Dale: Nope, but I'm sure they'll grab all of the Watcom ones they can.
james: yup. that's how i do it.
james: cool. not a cloud in the sky. if it stays clear i might get in some good stargazing tonight.
rich-c: I have also occasionally tried electrinic parts cleaner
Dale: The thing about GCC is that in general it used to be the only compiler that was ...
Ron's Grape iMac: the only thing ya hafta watch is the little rubber wheel on the right hand side. Tends to dissolve into
Ron's Grape iMac: an amorphous mass over time
Rich Drushel: You might also want to clean off the rubber roller wheel, if it looks like it's got brown, shiny tape oxide built up on it.
Dale: more likely to generate corect code with maximum optimizations on than off.
Ron's Grape iMac: and that is the speed governor for the tape (I think)
rich-c: I've been told those things are called "tires" and replacements can be had
Ron's Grape iMac: aha
james: i thought they were called pinch-rollers..
rich-c: Have to investigate that - if the amorphous mass can be removed in the first place
Ron's Grape iMac: when that happened to me, I had long since given up in fury using data pacs
james: or is that the metal pin in contact with the black "tire"?
Rich Drushel: With a razor blade to cut it, and naphtha (e.g. cigarette lighter fluid) to clean up the goop.
Dale: Many other vendors compilers would choke or generate wrong code with all optimizations on if you had a big enough hunk of source.
Ron's Grape iMac: One or t'other
rich-c: Far as I know they drive the sync strobe for teh speed governing chip
james: clear
james: oops - never mind..
Rich Drushel: How do the optimizations compare to hand-crafted code? I remember reading that anything that was within 2x of hand-crafted was very good.
rich-c: where are you located, Burnside?
james: how's it going ron?
WBurnside: I am located in Chicago, Illinois?
Ron's Grape iMac: It goes. James. Some weeks I'm not sure where
Rich Drushel: I'm in Cleveland, Ohio.
rich-c: Oh - you'll be a neighbour then of Guy Bona when he joins us
Ron's Grape iMac: Comox British Columbia (Vancouver Island) Canada
Ron's Grape iMac: where the sun is king
rich-c: I'm in Toronto, Ron's on Vancouver Island, and James is in Japan
Rich Drushel: I haven't heard from Guy Re: the SmartFiler patch for ADAMserve...I did it just for him, hope it works.
rich-c: Maybe he's so busy playing with it he's forgotten chat is tonight
Ron's Grape iMac: Want to try that here to Rich D. Read the article with interest
rich-c: I notice we're missing Bob too
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Rich Drushel: <Rich falls off his chair laughing> There, that's a stand-in for Guy :-)
Ron's Grape iMac: speaking of amorphous mass
Dale: I'm in Toronto.
changed username to Guy B.
Ron's Grape iMac: Toronto the GOOD
Dale: (Your host so to speak).
Rich Drushel: Grape iMac, Ron?
Guy B.: Greetings!!!
rich-c: Well, here's Guy - meet your neighbour WBurnside, Guy
Ron's Grape iMac: yep..... with any luck it'll even stay online tonight
Rich Drushel: Oh Ron, that was indeed cruel (just got the joke)
Ron's Grape iMac: had to switch back to .v34 on the modem though
Ron's Grape iMac: we still have remnants of 'tin-can-and-string' technology here
rich-c: Is that the computer or your local line then, Ron?
WBurnside: Hello Guy B!
Ron's Grape iMac: yes. haven't gone cable
Ron's Grape iMac: Yet
Dale: Definately called pinch-rollers. Tire is a new one on me.
Guy B.: Dr. D, I haven't had a chance to try the patch yet. But I will this weekend and I'll let you know.
james: re - remnants of tin-can and string technology - i think we just acquired it here..
Rich Drushel: Okay Guy, thanks. I'm pretty sure it will work (works on my ADAMserve setup here).
Ron's Grape iMac: will report back Rich D.
james: uh-oh. have i started a "tastes great, tastes less filling" debate on pinch-rollers and tires?
Rich Drushel: What I would love to do is get SmartFiler completely away from absolute blocks...then maybe it could actually create a new database when run from a hard drive.
james: morning guy :)
Guy B.: Guess were missing Bob tonight unless he was on earlier.
rich-c: Nope - I repeated the term I was given
Guy B.: Hi James. Still hot in Japan?
Ron's Grape iMac: I had heard neither. It was always that little round thingy on the right hand side that squeeled a lot
rich-c: Maybe they have different names is different places
Rich Drushel: Haven't seen Bob about yet tonight.
rich-c: Like hoagies and submarines
james: very hot but it's been cooler at night, finally. today's clear so i hope to get some stargazing in tonight.
Rich Drushel: pail/bucket, skillet/frying pan, spigot/faucet, tomayto/tomahto :-)
rich-c: Incidentally, gentlemen, I will be going missing next month for a bit
Ron's Grape iMac: James, just to show my ignorance, what's your lat. and long. (approx)
Rich Drushel: More vacation/holiday, Richard?
Guy B.: I bet you see them better without the city lights.
Ron's Grape iMac: The Clees never stay home
rich-c: Yes, Frances expressed an itch to see Nova Scotia again, last night
james: just to show my ignorance, i'll go check ;-)
Ron's Grape iMac: hah! rotfl
Ron's Grape iMac: gotcha!
rich-c: Says she wants to take off about half-past September
Rich Drushel: Yes they do: they just always bring it with them, behind the Meteor :-)
james: i get a very good view when there's no fog coming off the river, as is typical in late august.
Guy B.: I have to get far away as possible to see alot.
Ron's Grape iMac: Hello Guy Bona. Didn't see you there
Rich Drushel: Just to ask WBurnside, have you been having any particular troubles with your tape drive, or did you just notice that it was dirty?
rich-c: yes, Chicago is likely as bad as Toronto for light pollution
Guy B.: Hi Ron, using the iMac tonight? Hopefully without a hitch.
Ron's Grape iMac: yes.... hopefully
Ron's Grape iMac: but hobbling along at 33600
Dale: Well, I can hartily recommend a desert
Ron's Grape iMac: desert or dessert. I'll drink to that
james: being out in the countryside, i get very little light pollution. today is *absolutely* clear and it better stay that way tonight.
Guy B.: That's a good speed. I just got on at 41333.
rich-c: Ron, how far up can you go in the Mac OS before losing legacy compatibility?
Rich Drushel: Rank sweating, that 33600! How times have changed from 1200 bps...
james: 33.6? wow, you're blazing past me.
Dale: I've been to "Death Valley" in Calif/Navada border and the view from there was wonderful. Almost never any clouds.
Guy B.: What about 300 when the Adamlink modem first came out.
Ron's Grape iMac: well on the .v90 setting it connected at 49333. And stayed on for about 5 min before thinking the line was too noisy
rich-c: I have what's officially a 33.6 modem
Ron's Grape iMac: but then you have to see my telephone hookup
Rich Drushel: It was quite clear driving across Nebraska to ADAMcon 05. However, the light from Lincoln made the sky glow 200 miles away...and Lincoln is not that big a town (though it's big for Nebraska).
rich-c: but IE insists it's linking at 57.6 and so does Eudora
WBurnside: Where is a good place to get public domain software on DDP. I have some old NIAD newsletters that list some PD for the Adam.
Rich Drushel: Ask rich-c :-)
Dale: Death Valley is surrounded by mountains so that helps a lot.
rich-c: Just talk to me about anything you want, WB, I'm as near a thing to a dealer as Adam has left
james: i'm surrounded my mountains and forrest. forrest is very good for blocking light.
Rich Drushel: Richard has *everything*...
rich-c: make a note now: my email is
james: okay ron, i'm at (very approximately) 35N, 133E
Guy B.: Rich C, you do have the entire Niad PD library right?
Dale: Richard, the speed that you communicate with your modem is not necessarily the speed that the modem communicated over the phone line.
james: forest that is..
WBurnside: Sounds good to me! I will send you a e-mail about what I am looking for! rich-c
rich-c: both programs claim that's my actual connection speed, Dale
Dale: On the Adam, when you use a 14,400 baud modem, you set MEX or IMP to 19,200 baud.
Rich Drushel: James, how bad does Godzilla interfere with the view? :-) :-) Compared to Rodan, for example?
rich-c: In the early days of Tamco they showed as low as 19.2
rich-c: And Guy, I think I have the entire NIAD library, also most of gHaug, the stuff I got from Steve Majors, and some exclusive to me
Rich Drushel: WBurnside, how did you learn about this ADAM chat? Also, Dale is the administrator of an ADAM mailing list; you might want to consider subscribing.
james: :) not in today's forecast at least. hmm. 30% chance of light showers with a low of 21C and no godzilla. looks good.
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james: i gotta go teach. be back in about an hour!
rich-c: see you james
changed username to Ron's Old Doxbox
Rich Drushel: No wonder Tokyo always looks so good: Toho Urban Renewal Service every 5 years :-)
Dale: Ron's on twice?
Guy B.: I thought you did. There's some of the libraries I mean't to get before Niad folded 6 1/2 years ago.
Ron's Old Doxbox: Well so much for that theory
james: i'll be back!
Dale: Or is it just a chatbot?
james left chat session
Guy B.: Ron, how many phone lines do you have?
Dale: OH no! Rich D dropeed of again.
Rich Drushel: I'm here?
rich-c: I bought what Lyle Marschand had left, but there had been a lot of attrition
Dale: Scott Gordon has had 0 luck getting on.
Ron's Old Doxbox changed username to Ron's Old Dosbox
Rich Drushel: I just typed it in and it echoed.
Guy B.: Rich D, I don't show you on the list.
Ron's Old Dosbox: Just one Guy. And that's the problem
rich-c: our list says you arent't here, Rich
Rich Drushel: But you see my text, right?
rich-c: Or are you masquerading as Ron's Old DOSbox?
Rich Drushel: I show up in my "Users In This Room" list.
Ron's Old Dosbox: loud and clear
Guy B.: So you have the mac with a Dosbox as well as the browser you're using?
Rich Drushel: No tricks, I promise.
Ron's Old Dosbox changed username to Ron
Rich Drushel: Ron is running a router :-)
Ron: :)
Rich Drushel: That would let him have 2 machines on the net on one phone line.
WBurnside: I learned about the chat from Bob Slopsema ! When Igot a program from him on the Yahoo auction!
Ron: State of my knowledge does not yet permit
Dale: I think that Rich D is posing on the list as Ron's Grape iMac.
Guy B.: Well I be doggone.
Ron: But I do have 4 of them ethernetted together
rich-c: Guy, why don't you give WB your phione number - maybe you could help him
Guy B.: Where does WB live?
Rich Drushel: No I'm not, Scout's honor...
rich-c: Ghicago
WBurnside: I live in Chicago Guy B
Ron: Driveable to Cleveland I would think
Guy B.: I live in North Riverside which is west of Chicago. What part of Chicago do you live WB?
Ron: Our next ADAMCON is in Cleveland
Ron: hey! A USER Group!
WBurnside: I live on the South East side at 81st and Cottage Grove
Rich Drushel: I got a box of AUI-to-thinwire transceivers...I'm thinking of setting up an AppleTalk zone down here in the basement, for my Quadra 840AV and LC II and LaserWriter 630.
Dale: Ron, which machine do you dial out from usually?
Ron: Good Idea Rich. that makes a network all right
Guy B.: So, you're near the Dan Ryan right?
Ron: I'm just doing it for the experience of doing it.
Rich Drushel: All freebies, even the 600dpi laser printer...Computer Engineering was throwing them out; they only want Intel Inside.
WBurnside: Actually 8 blocks from it!
Ron: Have here an LC475 as well as the iMAC
Guy B.: Ok, sounds good. What kind of Adam programs are you looking for?
Dale: It drove Jill crazy before I set up my transparent proxy firewall.
Ron: Yeah.... we get that here now and then. North Island College
WBurnside: My Adam is at work in my office at 122 South MIchigan Avenue
Rich Drushel: This LaserWriter has a bazillion ports on the back: PC serial, PC parallel, Ethernet, ADB, Mac serial for LocalTalk.
Ron: you name it, I got it, hook me up :)
Dale: Surplus LaserWriter?
Rich Drushel: Great, an ADAM doing real work still...great to hear it, WBurnside.
Guy B.: Is your office at the Chicago River?
Rich Drushel: Yeah, only about 6000 pages been through it, too. *And* 2 toner cartridges. I'll be set for life here.
Dale: Jill (in the other room) says hi.
WBurnside: My office is 5 blocks from the river?
Ron: you're in good shape with that one Rich
Rich Drushel: It was destined for a dumpster otherwise, seriously.
Guy B.: South of the river right?
Dale: Wow. It sounds like a deal and a half.
rich-c: Say hello to Jill from myself and Frances
Rich Drushel: So, any ADAMcon 13 mailings that you might get will probably be printed on it.
Ron: I'm not really up on the economics of it, but it sure seems institutions throw out a lot of stuff very quickly
WBurnside: Sorry The Adam is not doing any real work right now! I just have all my packages delivered to my office!
Ron: 'bout the same as the rest of us W'B
Rich Drushel: It doesn't have to work well, it just has to look "new" in a photo, or for a tour of Friday Freshmen.
WBurnside: Yes my office is South of the river!
Ron: Although my midi favourite is still the ADAM
Dale: Jill's just starting a "Canadian Securities Course" ...
Guy B.: So you haven't had a chance to set it up yet. You would be around the Adams/Monroe area right?
Rich Drushel: "Of course Canadians are secure!" :-)
Dale: her first exam is in November, but she has a year to complete the course.
WBurnside: I am using the Adam, timex, and Atari to show my students the computers of old
Rich Drushel: What are Jill's ultimate career plans, Dale?'
Ron: Seems Jeff was last at this keyboard.... there's an cardboard key thingie that says
WBurnside: Yes I am around Adams/Monroe
Ron: "Infantry Tank aav Bomber turret sam ksat"
WBurnside: The school is right above Bennigans
rich-c: so you're a teacher then, WB?
Dale: Something like financial planning for a Brokerage.
Rich Drushel: Haven't you taught Jeff not to play Global Thermonuclear War, Ron?
Guy B.: Just trying to remember what is around there. That was my next question.
rich-c: Adamcalc is great for that, Dale
Ron: I know he's seen the movie. Was on here just the other night
WBurnside: Yes I teach people programming languages and how to use PC's and MAC's
Rich Drushel: The Imsais in that are hot collectors items...
Ron: well well Interesting W'B
rich-c: not in the public system - a business operation then, I assume?
Guy B.: What programming languages are you teaching WB?
WBurnside: I work for National-Louis University
Ron: what languages?
Dale: Do you have an AdamCalc stock feed patch yet?
rich-c: Haven't heard of that one - it's private, is it?
WBurnside: The school use to be called National College of Education
rich-c: That's something you should program, Dale
Guy B.: Ah, thats right. I remember that name. They had a campus out in the suburbs. When did they open the downtown campus?
WBurnside: I teach Java, Visual Basic, Pascal, Cobol and I am heavy in to relational databases
Ron: cool
Guy B.: I'm an 6 year experience former Cobol programmer.
rich-c: As you may have gathered, you're in a company pretty skilled in those in most cases
WBurnside: The downtown operation opened in 1974 it original location was 18 South Michigan Avenue
rich-c: Dale has his own software company
Dale: A good pot of languages. Some nice choices there.
rich-c: And Ron I believe currently has 24 different computers up and running
Ron: yes.... the junk room
WBurnside: Before NLU I worked for Burroughs now known as Unisys
rich-c: Dr. D teaches calsses in robotics
Ron: Unisys lives this side of the border too I think
Rich Drushel: Previously known as Sperry-Univac...
Rich Drushel: And I think Remington-Rand before that...
Guy B.: Oh yes, my company had a Unisys mainframe until we got rid of it last year as we went to network client system.
Dale: Our company will finally be publicly traded mere days from now. It's looking like Sept 14 is the magic day.
rich-c: Yes, their supplies division is known as Unisource. Saw one of their trucks yesterday
Rich Drushel: Beware the vulture capitalists.
WBurnside: I work at the headquarters in Detroit a stone's throw from Windsor
Ron: we will maintain just enough socialism north of the 49th parallel to be seen as different
rich-c: Yes, just to the north of it
Dale: We've manages to be funded for a year and a half with out any VC money, and now we will be public, thus side steping VCs all together.
Rich Drushel: Just remember, though, Ron, that in the south we have crispy bacon...pbbbt!
(Guy B. laughs heartily)
Ron: Did you know WB that most of the languages you mention are available for ADAM (except Visual Basic)
Ron: and JAVA
Ron: we had COBOL, Fortran, C, Forth
rich-c: That's HAVE, Ron
Guy B.: Not Java though.
Rich Drushel: Turbo Pascal
Ron: and in interesting amalgam of C, BASIC and Assembler written somebody right in this chat room
Rich Drushel: even the rare Turbo Modula-2
rich-c: Why no Java? Isn't it platform-independent?
Ron: didn't know about that one
Ron: oh yes, forgot Pascal
Rich Drushel: The Java virtual machine is bigger than an 8-bit CPU.
Guy B.: I still have Turbo Pascal 6.0 for DOS.
rich-c: bummer
Rich Drushel: I don't think Java is even thinkable for any 8-bit.
rich-c: maybe we'll have to pursue things with after all
Ron: at one time I managed to write a "Hello, what is your name?" type program in each
Dale: If you're out searching for a growing company to invest in, mine is the one. :-)
Ron: I want a seat on the Board Dale
Ron: governance is my game
Rich Drushel: I want an ADAM emulator Easter Egg in all your products, Dale.
Ron: ;) rotfl
Dale: We could run embedded Java...
Dale: I think that there is a version of emJava for the Z80 at least.
Dale: It is something to think about.
Rich Drushel: Maybe with a bank-switched RAM setup.
Ron: keep going guys, this is getting interesting
rich-c: Since it needs a 486 minimum anyway, maybe some tweaking could be done on the Emulator
Rich Drushel: I wish that the base memory expander widely available for the ADAM were at least 128K. Then I could ignore the first 64K (which SmartWriter and ADAMcalc and SmartBASIC 2.0 take over for themselves) and use the rest to expand EOS.
rich-c: Be really need if it could emulate a megabyte memory expander and then divide it
Guy B.: That would be definately nice to have.
Dale: Hmmm, well for an AdamEm easter egg, I'll need to take the Java Colecovision Emulator and add adam capabilities...
rich-c: Should lean on Marcel to join in these chats occasionally
Ron: Something to do with rolling dice
Dale: or put the AdamEm in an ActiveX control...
Rich Drushel: But the alternative is to rewrite SmartWriter to disable XRAM access (and force you to put in new ROMs, good luck getting people to do that).
Dale: since my company mostly does client server websites for printing and publishing or photo sharing.
Rich Drushel: Does ADAMem support more than 64K of XRAM?
WBurnside: Is there a power supply I can use so that I do not have to keep using the printer to power the Adam! The printer is heavy and want to be able to take Adam home! I am riding the CTA!
rich-c: Depends - if someone could burn the chips and teh price was right...
Dale: AdamEm does 2Meg mega expanders.
WBurnside: the CTA is Chicago mass transit rail system!
Rich Drushel: Chips, not problem. Opening up the case and installing them--major undertaking for most users.
Guy B.: Probably up to 640K is my guess or the available memory of your PC.
rich-c: Just take the power supply out of the printer and put it in a box
Ron: Rich C - you got one of them neat power supplies like you sold me?
Rich Drushel: Hmm, I must not have the latest version of ADAMEM; methinks mine only knows about 64K XRAM.
Ron: Believe you're right Rich D.
Ron: Will have to go check
rich-c: I don't think so for the users we have left, Rich
Rich Drushel: WBurnside, PC-type power supplies can be used...but you have to splice in the ADAM power cable to the correct wires on the PC power supply.
rich-c: No, you got the one and only, Ron
rich-c: I think I got it when I bought Steve Majors' stock
Guy B.: Rich D, you can expand the 64K in AdamEm. The default is 1, but I tried 8 and I got 512K to work with Powerpaint.
Dale: The update from version 0.9 to version 1.0 added larger adam expanders.
rich-c: So WB, get the emulator and put your Adam in your laptop
Dale: Well, a friend system to ours is the Nintendo Gameboy. It uses a Z80.
Guy B.: WB do you have any Adam disk drives with your Adam?
Rich Drushel: Well, my wanted hardware add-one would latch all the write-only memory configuration ports, so that you could read from them and find out what the current memory configuration is. That's a major stumbling block to having a multi-tasking ADAM--knowing what the current memory map is without having to destructively test for it. Latches for VDP register 0 and 1 (which are write-only) would be good, too, so you could know what the current video mode is.
moved to room Meeting Place
Dale: The new Colour GameBoy uses the eZ80 chip, that I'd love to play with as soon as I can get the right stuff together.
changed username to Ron Again
Ron Again: So much for tin can and string
Dale: (For prototyping and experimenting with a design).
WBurnside: No I do not have any disk drives yet Guy B. I do have another Tape drive which I have to install along with a 64k expander
Rich Drushel: All these permutations of Ron are making me dizzy.
Ron Again: I know.... sorry about that..... seems Windows doesn't like my phone connection either
Dale: A handheld Coleco Adam compatible machine with USB would be my desire.
Rich Drushel: Did it ask you to insert your install CD to redial? :-)
Ron Again: Guess I'll have to settle on one machine and connect it directly to the phone jack like most normal people do
rich-c: Maybe you'll have to talk to Scott about that - he seems to have ambitions
moved to room Meeting Place
moved to room Meeting Place
Guy B.: I'm planning to get a new system next year. Hopefully by the Adamcon 13. I do want to have USB with it.
Rich Drushel: Dale, would you do it as an ADAMnet<->USB bridge, or just make a dedicated sideport expansion card with USB on it?
rich-c: I'm leery of USB because I'd have to get all sorts o new peripherals
Ron Again: Around here it lives (more or less)....USB that is
Guy B.: My new Lexmark Z52 has a USB port as well as a Parellel port.
Ron Again: The USB to Parallel converter for the printer cost $90.
rich-c: I'm unhappy with both printer and scanner on the parallel port - USB would be more comfy
Ron Again: and doesn't work well with OS9
rich-c: Win95 is alleged to support USB but everyone says it doesn't
Dale: Well, I would like as a seperate (and much less ambitious) project to make a hardware AdamNet to USB gateway device.
Guy B.: Only Win95B supports it. Win95 and Win95A doesn't.
rich-c: I think I have Win95B
Dale: That way you could use USB keyboards, mice, printers, scanners, cameras, disk drives, ZIP drives, joysticks, etc. on the Adam
Ron Again: Just to get back to memory expansion on the emualtor for a minute guys
Ron Again: I have Filemanager running under ADAMem on the other machine
rich-c: go ahead Ron
Ron Again: and it says it can see 94K
Ron Again: Which means 64K expansion max
Guy B.: But, we need memory for all those devices. And 1 Meg doesn't cut it.
Ron Again: Filemanager usually picks up larger if it's there
Dale: But what I really meant was that I'd be using a ground up eZ80 Coleco Adam which was software compatible, but used USB to interface with all of the plethora of current hardware.
rich-c: Yes, it always did on my machine till the 256K broke
rich-c: What's the eZ80, Dale? I haven't run across that yet
Dale: The emulator has a commandline parameter that adds a larger expader.
Dale: (expander)
Rich Drushel: Some night I will boot SB1.x under ADAMEM and do some POKE(address,value,latch) commands for latch>1. 2 MB XRAM should give me unique PEEK(address,latch) values for latch up to 15.
Ron Again: You're right Dale.... had forgotten about that
Dale: So instead of writing away to AdamLink of Utah, you restart the emulator with the appropriate option.
Guy B.: Ok, I'm going to go. Got to get the e-mail and get the address of the person who won my mouse on Yahoo Auctions. See you all next week.
moved to room Meeting Place
changed username to BobS
Ron Again: I consider myself duly chastised
rich-c: See you Guy - lots of luck
Dale: TTYL Guy.
Ron Again: bout time!
BobS: by Guy!
Rich Drushel: MIOC is the big stumbling block...yeah, it's just a big PAL, but the's not fully documented anywhere that I know about.
Guy B.: You late Bob, but I got to run. Be here early next week.
rich-c: Hey, we're all just about ready to go home!
Rich Drushel: Bye Guy.
Guy B. left chat session
Ron Again: question
Ron Again: Are USB and ADAMnet similar in concept, or do they only appear that way?
BobS: had a fambly gatherin' tonight and just got home. then got locked up but now I am here!!!
Dale: The eZ80 is a new chip from Zilog. It can run multiple virtual 100% compatible Z80 CPUs...
Ron Again: multitasking!
Dale: or can address a larger flat memory space...
Rich Drushel: Bob just sent me E-mail to say that Vincent Bono is legit, as he has bought ADAM stuff from Bob. So, no more doubts from me...let's see if a LINUX-in-ADAM's-clothing box emerges.
WBurnside: Hello Bobs I got the package thank you!
Dale: there is even some optional DSP type instructions suitable for application such as MP3 playback.
Rich Drushel: Okay, my buffer has overflowed again here...reconnecting.
Dale: Bob!
Rich Drushel left chat session
BobS: GOOD Willie!!! and I see yo are on track for some more "stuff"
rich-c: Sounds as if Vinny should be sent a copy pof tonight's chat
moved to room Meeting Place
changed username to Rich Drushel
Rich Drushel: Back again.
Rich Drushel: Though I ought to go soon: been up for 19 hours already.
BobS: I said Richard D, that Vinnie is buying ADAM stuff, I don't recall if hw has bought any of mine or not
rich-c: That is not good for the health, Rich
BobS: why so long sir????
BobS: busy computerizing eh?
Ron Again: 70 hour days
Rich Drushel: I woke up at 3:30 this morning and was absolutely wide awake. So, I got up and did some housework, some computer work, and went into the lab at 6 AM.
Ron Again: sounds like the 'snake pit' here
Dale: Not much wonder you're buffer is overflowing <wink>
Ron Again: At least you get stuff done
Dale: So it can do DSP (signal processing) stuff...
Rich Drushel: Starting to run out of gas again...there was a lull at about 4 PM today, but I picked up again after supper. Now it's slowing down again.
rich-c: With a 19 hour day even I might get something done - till the heart attack
Rich Drushel: Re: Dale, haha.
Ron Again: My total achievement for the day was 2 hours at the golf driving range, download of 6 midi files and 3 mp3's
Ron Again: and a nap by the swimming pool
Ron Again: Then it was time to come here
Dale: such as MP3 playback or fast JPEG decoding, maybe even MPG playback (I'm not certain about that though).
Rich Drushel: So that's retirement, eh? I'll never see that.
WBurnside: Guy B, have you taught or given any thought to teaching at the colege or university level
Ron Again: hard to take eh?
rich-c: At this rate we'll be surfing the net on an emulated Adam by Acon 0D
Rich Drushel: Guy B. has left for the night, WB.
BobS: Guy's gone till next week Willie
Ron Again: nobody answered my question
Rich Drushel: You could...if you just want to use the ADAM as a VT100.
rich-c: Is his email address still
Ron Again: is there any similarity of concept between ADAMnet and USB?
Dale: Well, Ron, I think that USB and AdamNET are strikingly similar from what I've been able to surmise.
BobS: YES, you make me SICK!!!!! calling that a "work" day......for SHAME on ya!!!
Rich Drushel: This chat client would be out, though.
Ron Again: that's what appears to be so
Ron Again: suffer BobS
BobS: I AM!!!!
rich-c: Speaking of unanswered questions, Ron
Rich Drushel: Taunt him not, or I'll withhold your crispy bacon next July ;-)
Ron Again: yes?
Ron Again: oh no!
Rich Drushel: <evil grin>
BobS: on the surface it would seem tha USB and ADAMnet are cut from the same design
rich-c: How backwards compatible are the various Mac OSs
Dale: I've only looked at USB from a chip integrators level.
Ron Again: so far as I'm able to tell Rich C. once you get past the power PC stage, there is plenty of stuff that won't run
Ron Again: on the older machines.
rich-c: Have a buddy with an LC475 or something who's thinking upgrade
Ron Again: Ok on an LC 475 he can go to OS 8.1 and no further
Rich Drushel: I think that the logical operation of USB and ADAMnet are the same. No idea about the physical implementation, though. ADAMnet is based on a Motorola serial networking protocol that has a "magic" bit pattern which can allow all network nodes except the designated receiver to ignore the network traffic.
rich-c: I'd want to warn him if he'd have to replacve all his software
Dale: Rich D, I would be virtualizing the DMA to use USB versions of the AdamNet devices.
Ron Again: That does pretty well for the older graphics and even MIDI, but forget MP3
Dale: Would that cover off your concern.
Ron Again: some of the basics, yes
Rich Drushel: As long as there is an ADAMnet DCB in Z80 RAM, it doesn't matter what sits on the other side of it.
Ron Again: Actually, the LC475 so far as I can tell is comparable to a 486/33
Rich Drushel: You would need to implement the PCB and PCB relocation, too.
WBurnside: I have to say goodnight! My son needs help with his homework! Bye!
rich-c: Come back soon, Willie
Rich Drushel: So long, WB. Come back next week for some more.
Ron Again: priorities W'B. Good to meet ya
BobS: see ya Willie
WBurnside left chat session
Dale: There is a master and all others are slaves on USB.
rich-c: That sounds very Adamnetty
Ron Again: Dale.... think all are equal... or at least it seems so on iMac
moved to room Meeting Place
Ron Again: it doesn't matter where you plug in what
Dale: What else is the MIOC chip responsible for?
left chat session
Rich Drushel: I was thinking from the existing ADAM software you (read: I) don't have to patch any more programs.
Rich Drushel: MIOC generates the 8th bit of DRAM refresh (Z80 only generates 7).
Rich Drushel: MIOC also listens to the memory switch ports and controls the memory map.
Ron Again: Is the MIOC the chip that isn't readily available?
Ron Again changed username to Ron
Dale: The Intel chipsets are master on the PC side.
Rich Drushel: The ADAM reset and ColecoVision reset switches are also gated through the MIOC to generate the appropriate Z80 /RST signal.
Dale: I'm not clear on how the iMac hardware is set up exactly.
Dale: My understanding is that devices can communicate directly to each other such as..
Ron: well.... from a user point of view, I have two USB plugs into the computer
Ron: one of which must be used for the keyboard.
Dale: using a digital camera connected to a printer to print.
Ron: The keyboard then provides two more USB connectors
Rich Drushel: It also does the bus and interface signal timing between the Master 6801 and the Z80; it sets up the DMA into Z80 RAM, and lets the DCBs be memory-mapped into Master address space.
Ron: And for a mere $66. I bought a USB hub which allows up to 8
rich-c: Don't most USB devices also have an out port for daisy-chaining?
Dale: (Sorry I meant USB devices must always communicate to the master, not to each other).
Ron: technically,how all that does buisness with the OS and the G3, I have no idea
Ron: yes Rich C. Although the video capture software and cable I have...the book warns you to connect it
Rich Drushel: Ron, there is actually a little dogcow who runs up and down the USB cable, carrying data...
Ron: directly to the computer, not the keyboard connector
Dale: Now Richard, most USB devices don't have additional ports.
Ron: seems like some are more equal than others
Ron: I KNEW IT RichD
Ron: wondered where the Dogcow went
Rich Drushel: You know about Moof. right?
Dale: But hubs are inexpensive and you can potientally put up to 127 devices on one USB network.
rich-c: So I guess the ticket is to get the eight-port hub -if it will manage teh mouse and keyboard
Ron: yep. Right now what I really really want is an Ethernet to USB Bridge
Ron: Then I won't have to switch appletalk for the LC475
Ron: Or I could sell the LC475
Dale: What is Moof?
Ron: but no...
Ron: same as a Dogco3
Ron: Dogcow
Ron: You have to be a mac insane person to know
Rich Drushel: Moof is the name of the the Page Setup menu on any Mac and you will see him.
BobS: what's a Dogco3?????
rich-c: sounds vaguely like a token ring setup
Ron: Ron's bad typing
Rich Drushel: I will post a pointer to a picture of him tomorrow...after I grab a screen shot from my desktop 7600 tomorrow.
Ron: there ya go. I'll port it over to ADAM and we'll have an ADAM DogCow
Ron: on Powerpaint
Ron: Hope nobody prints this transcript
rich-c: We're sending it to Vinny
Ron: Do I know Vinny?
Dale: It is often reprinted in either ANN or MTAG's newsletter.
Rich Drushel: Maybe we should make our own hybrid about the purple ADAM dinosaur and the Linux penguin?
rich-c: did you read Dr. D's postings to the mail list today?
Ron: good idea
Rich Drushel: I officially renounce my doubts...I don't think he's a troll.
Ron: we need a picture of Bill Gates somewhere
rich-c: On the background dartboard will be fine
Dale: Our dinosaur is NOT purple. He's proudly pink.
Ron: YES!
Ron: Yup. Got a close up picture of him
Rich Drushel: That's right...BTW, Elanor is taking good care of Adam.
Rich Drushel: Her sisters are not destroying him. He will be intact for next ADAMcon.
Ron: Is Elanor aware of the 'stewardship' role she has been assigned Rich?
rich-c: Is Adam taking good care of Elanor?
Rich Drushel: Re: stewardship, yes, it was explained to her, she has no problem with it.
Ron: we knew she'd understand
Rich Drushel: Adam, however, I think is just looking after himself :-)
rich-c: Sounds like he is leading her in the paths of righteousness, then
Ron: Amen!
Rich Drushel: Since when is any ADAM the path of righteousness? <ducks and runs>
Dale: Well, what do you think of my eZ80 Adam compatible idea?
Dale: Or is the AdamNet to USb a better idea?
Ron: Leads me away from ex-wifes and closets me in a room forever
Dale: (It is certainly a less expensive idea) for me.
Rich Drushel: Sounds me one :-) With a 6.5-inch diagonal color LCD screen.
Dale: Perfect. Are they available in NTSCish resolutions?
rich-c: Sure - any pocket colour tv has one
Dale: I keep going to shows that give me quotes on 10,000 LCDs. I think to myself "Gaack!"
Rich Drushel: Yes...if you want to pay $600 apiece (current quote from DigiKey) for 6.5-inch screen.
Rich Drushel: 4-inch is $350; 5.5-inch is $500. Just looked around today, as a matter of fact.
Dale: But it would include an IDE harddisk-on-a-chip. There is an 80MB avaiable for almost nothing.
Dale: How do I find DigiKey?
rich-c: then put in two - they're small
Rich Drushel: it's where I order all my electronic parts for the robot course.
Dale: Cool. I'll check them out.
moved to room Meeting Place
rich-c: Ron's iMac has burped again
changed username to Ron
Rich Drushel: If a 5.5-inch module were $200, or a 6.5-inch module were $300, I'd buy one. (dimension is screen diagonal)
Ron: this time it was the Pentium
rich-c: String break , Ron?
Ron: Guess I better give it up guys
Dale: Rich, you're a fountain of information today.
Ron: my tin can and string is getting tired
Dale: BTW, I downloaded AdamServe now.
Rich Drushel: I'm so tired, I feel like I'm gushing...
Ron: proves it's not the computer....
Rich Drushel: Yeah, I saw from the logs.
Rich Drushel: I suppose you ought to try to install it somewhere to make sure that everything I said is there actually is there.
Dale: I just have to make sense of all of the parts. Then I'll coordinate with Neil and get the AdamCon 0Ch CD-ROM with ANN archive on there.
Ron: So we shall see you all next week .... assuming the Island is still here
rich-c: 's OK, Rich, I'm going to have to drop out too
Ron: be well
Rich Drushel: "Make sense of all the parts"...I tried hard to put it all together logically.
rich-c: Nite Ron, Rich
BobS: See ya in TWO weeks Ron
Ron: TWO?
Rich Drushel: So long Ron and Richard...I guess I should go, too. Any last requests before I bail, Dale?
BobS: yup, going camping to the berach next Wed
Ron: have good time
Ron: niters
rich-c: enjoy, Bob. nite
BobS: so won't be here forya'l to kick around!
Dale: It's just that there were a lot of things that I downloaded. I'm sure it;ll all be clear if I look it over.
BobS: I goot go also guys
rich-c: colour me gone
Ron: poof
moved to room Meeting Place
Ron left chat session
changed username to james
Dale: I'll talk to you all later then, I jguess.
Rich Drushel: I hope it's clear :-)
BobS: see ya later!!!!!
Dale: Hi James.
james: good afternoon :)
BobS: well then I will stay to say HOWDY to James!!!
BobS: how you am James???
Rich Drushel: Well, James is back...just in time to see everyone else go out the door.
james: pretty good, you?
james: i see most people have left..
BobS: well, when "one" is fashionably late, shall we say, one never knows what will happen.......
Dale: James just took a break...
BobS: thank you
Dale: to pay the bills.
james: i was on earlier, but had to do a class from 11-noon.
BobS: ah so!!
james: so, yo!
BobS: I was late :-(
BobS: and then missed out on LOTS!!!
Dale: You have a class scheduled right in the middle of our chat session, right James?
james: apparently in exchange for the money i receive, i'm expected to teach :)
BobS: tha is CRUDE!!!
BobS: what do they think anyway!
james: i tried to avoid it, but i have to do alot of make-up classes from the summer festival last week and i'm running out of
james: August to do them in.
Dale: Check out the transcript. I picked up lots from last week's transcript.
james: cool. a thought occurred to me the other day!
Dale: I also think I may have figured out what Rich Drushel is having problems with.
james: (this happens sometimes)
BobS: anyway, i gotta go. so wee you all in 2 weeks!!!
Rich Drushel: Well, if I am to do my paid job tomorrow morning, I had better go to bed now...good night, everyone.
james: bye bob!
BobS: be good, have fun, and don't take any golden indians!!!!
james: good night, rich d.
BobS left chat session
Dale: Good night Rich.
Rich Drushel left chat session
james: what's a golden indian?
Dale: Some kind of US currency I think.
james: hmm. weird. i'm getting some stuff from rich clee and next month i'll probably pick up a printer interface card.
Dale: That'll be good. The Adam works with selected ink-jet printers and also selected laser printers.
james: i was curious about that - once i get the card and cable and find a "compatible" printer, where do i go for drivers? how do they work, are
james: they program specific like the old dos days?
Dale: Well, it is all over the map.
Dale: There are program specific "printer patches", and then there are EOS and TDOS printer patches.
james: okay, let's say i wanted to use adam's built in wordprocessor on boot-up and print to a bubble-jet, can that be done?
Dale: It should be possible using someing like "SmartWRITER Helper" which applies a patch to the EOS to redirect the calls to send stuff to the printer.
Dale: Also Rich D's AdamServe may allow for that too.
james: okay, i'm mostly curious. are any canon bubble jet printers (black and white is fine) supported?
Dale: With SmartWRITER helper, it allows you to put in "Control codes" that use different fonts, styles and sizes ...
james: neat. are there programs for doing graphics?
Dale: depending on the built-in capabilities of your printer.
Dale: ESC P2 Epson compatible printers can do some pretty amazing things using only built-in fonts and features.
james: hmm. let's say with the right programming skills, is it at least theoretically possible to send graphics to the printer?
Dale: I don't remember for sure about the Cannon BubbleJet, but my spider sense says that it should be fine.
james: just curious, as i'd like to try, just for the fun of it. anyone tried getting a parallel port zip drive to work?
james: i'll be right back - door bell..
Dale: Definately. You should be able to do screen dumps from SmartLOGO for instance. I'd be happy to help you with such a project.
Dale: We've talked about the parallel port ZIP drive, but the problem is that the parallel port chips that are out there are not "bi-di"...
Dale: not bidirectional, and so I don't think that the Parallel port ZIP drive is an option.
Dale: Earlier we were speculating about an AdamNet to USb adaptor that would support a...
Dale: USB ZiP drive, or Keyboard or mouse, etc.
Dale: Also the IDE ZIP drive would probably jsut work out of the box. I'll have to buy one this fall and try it out.
james: that's another thing i was curious about - getting an ide hard drive going on my adam.
Dale: of course you'd have to find a Micro Innovations IDE adaptor, but there are still some around.
james: i've been talking to rich alot and i'm looking at getting one normal printer interface board and the other is a mib3 board.
Dale: Well, there are 2 good options for hard disks for the Adam.
james: would i need the mib3 board and the mi ide adaptor?
Dale: Either get an IDE adaptor (the "low cost slot 3 adaptor" is my favorite), and a small (64MB is ideal, I usually have an 80MB) HD...
Dale: obtainable for about $10 these days.
james: seriously, old hard drives are cheap. sec. gonna write this down..
Dale: Or use the AdamServe to make the PC a slave device for the Adam and use the PC's disk drives, a virtual harddisk, etc.
james: i'm a purist and would prefer to have a physical drive actually connected to my adam.
Dale: The IDE adaptor is my recommendation. It is incredably fast.
Dale: You can start LOGO in less than 2 seconds!
james: okay, is the ide adaptor different from the mib3 board?
Dale: Yes.
james: < 2 seconds is nice.
james: okay, then what is the difference between the mib3 board and the normal printer interface card?
Dale: The MIB3 board has 2 serial and 1 parallel connectors for modems, external 80 col screen and printer...
Dale: but it also has a spot for an expansion ROM with a "auto booter" that can be used to start the hard disk, ...
Dale: rather than having to bootstrap it from tape/disk (which is still pretty fast but less convenient).
Dale: With a normal printer adaptor there is only the parallel port not...
Dale: the serial ports or the spot for the special boot ROM.
james: okay, got it. now the ide adaptor is for connecting ide devices (okay, there's a work of genius deduction on my part)
james: is there anything else on it?
moved to room Meeting Place
changed username to sgordon
Dale: The MIB3 + IDE combo with a 64k or larger memory expander is what I consider an ideal way to fill the internal expansion slots.
sgordon: Hello
Dale: Scott!!!!!!!!!!!!
james: okay, that makes sense to me.
Dale: You made it somehow?
sgordon: Amazing, isn
james: hey scott
sgordon: t it!
sgordon: This time I got on with no problem!
sgordon: It looks like the room is nice and responsive.
Dale: What OS/Browser/ISP are yu using.
sgordon: Good job.
sgordon: Windows 98, IE 5 I think
sgordon: Let me check...
Dale: It's been good with as many as 10 online. I haven't really had an opportunity to try more.
sgordon: Yup IE 5
sgordon: I'm using my dad's machine.
james: thanks for the advice on the hardware dale. so i know the mem expander goes in slot three,
Dale: We were jsut philosphising on how to best fill the internal slots.
sgordon: 10! That's twice as much as my old chat room.
sgordon: Gotcha.
james: the mib3 card goes where and the ide thingy (that's the *technical* term for it) goes where?
Dale: I've basically concluded that the best way is to put a Slot 3 IDE card, an MIB3 and a 64k or larger memory card in.
sgordon: I guess using the ADAMLink modem is pointless, so yeah that looks about right to me...
Dale: James, have you ever poped the top off your Adam over the Tape drive bays?
james: many times :)
Dale: So from right to left the slots are labeled Slot 1, 2 and 3.
sgordon: Dale -- you still interested in software development?
james: okay, got that.
Dale: Slot 1 is designed for memory expansion.
james: ahh. okay slot 1 - mem
james: slot 2 would be the mib3 board then?
Dale: Slot 2 is for an expansion ROM, but works well for parallel card, serial card, etc.
james: or printer card
Dale: Slot 1 is for the AdamLink modem usually but it also wors well for the IDE <---> harddisk adaptor.
Dale: (I mean slot 3)
Dale: Scott, I've been working on...
james: slot 3 okay. yeah that makes sense. scared me there for a sec. thought i was dense or going crazy.
Dale: Adam software almost every day since AdamCon. As often as possible at least.
james: i have an adamlink modem but of course if i get the mib3 board, then i'll buy an old external 9600.
sgordon: Wow. What's in the pipeline?
james: well, i'll be decompiling and adding functionality to logo, once i learn z80 of course.
Dale: My current project involves a "Warcraft style" game. You are effectively "god" to a gaggle of AIs...
sgordon: Sounds complicated.
Dale: which wander around the map collecting resources, building things and collecting things.
sgordon: I'm in school right now so not a whole lot of time to program.
sgordon: But I am making my way back around to it.
james: don't worry, i'm still catching up on 10 years worth of adam development.
sgordon: Dale -- you said that you are using Linux to program?
sgordon: Currently I am learning UNIX for my work.
Dale: Yes, Linux + the Adam emulator.
sgordon: But I have a distinct interest in Linux
sgordon: How does it improve your ability to program?
Dale: I've got some tools that I've been working with that generate a SuperGame tape image file...
sgordon: I'm looking for any way possible to improve my programming efficiency.
Dale: from source code and any data. It make the compile test cycle many time faster than doing it all on a tpae based system...
sgordon: So are you writing it in C?
Dale: but it is still more convient than using a harddisk based system, because I do it mostly on my laptop, which I can take anywhere.
sgordon: And virtually unlimited space...
sgordon: What language are you coding in?
Dale: The same development can be made to work on Windows, but I mostly use Linux lately, so it works in either place.
Dale: I could write the game in C, but I'm just so used to writing in Z80 assembly that I've been prototyping in C then rewriting in native assembly.
sgordon: How close are you to being done with your Warcraft style game?
Dale: So it works well for me since I can just type "make" and the dependancies are all resloved using the make tool.
Dale: A good question.
Dale: I have been ding it mostly bottom up.
sgordon: I am rewriting some of the code for The Font Suite.
Dale: You can see an example of my old seek-evade algorithm on the AdamCon 0Ch web page in a Java applet.
sgordon: It's my super charged font editing program.
Dale: The graphics for the game are done.
sgordon: The program is basically done, I'm just eliminating bugs and improving the code.
Dale: I have a finite state machine that implements all of the AI for the player's minions.
Dale: The game is titled "Death & Taxes".
sgordon: Then Single Dragon
sgordon: And wasn't there a marble-type of game?
Dale: On the other hand I haven't started the user interface for the game, nor do I have any specific background music ...
sgordon: Time to call up Chris Braymen.
sgordon: Help!
Dale: I'd like some ragtime music (which is all PD now -- I have a CD of it, and my local library has scores).
Dale: Well, I still want to do the marble type game.
james: sorry, i've just been eavesdropping :)
sgordon: Dale -- any way we can use the external modem to create an online game?
sgordon: Like an online role-playing game?
Dale: Single Dragon is of course waiting for your free time. We missed each other that one time (I got confused about the day...)
Dale: and never got back to it.
sgordon: Still interested in going forward with Single Dragon?
Dale: The finite states machine works perfectly in C
Dale: I've just finished a Z80 assembly version, but I haven't started testing it yet.
sgordon: Maybe we could get James to chip in some programming.
sgordon: Can an online RPG be done on the ADAM?
Dale: Interested yes.
james: hey, i'm awake :) i'd be interested in helping out. i hope to be able to, in about 6 months from now, say that i know z80.
Dale: There is ModemTank and ModemChess...
sgordon: Basically most of the environments would be from 5K-20K.
Dale: both by Chris Braymen.
sgordon: Not alot in terms of a packet of data.
sgordon: Even with 9600, you should be able to get decent download times.
sgordon: Any source code for those programs?
Dale: Although I'm definately interested in doing an online RPG, I jsut don't know about one for the Adam.
Dale: There are many technical problems to solve before I would say yes to such a project.
sgordon: Sure. I'm not thinking of it in terms of multiplayer.
Dale: The question that I have concerning an online RPG is whether you could find a large enough community to play ot make it compelling.
sgordon: Basically one player game in an absolutely insanely large world.
sgordon: This would be an ADAMCON event.
sgordon: It's an idea right now.
Dale: Who would create such a world? Wouldn't it take an excessive amount of time?
sgordon: Not with the tools that I'm developing.
Dale: Anyway back to my Death & Taxes design...
sgordon: Actually let's discuss Single Dragon.
Dale: the map for each level is 64x16 of which you can see at most 8x6
sgordon: What needs to be done on it?
sgordon: What is done on it?
Dale: Okay. Did I ever get you to read the graphics spec?
sgordon: Not sure what you mean.
Dale: Have you tried to go to the Mayan page and get that development to work?
james: okay, i'm off to run some errands. i'll leave you guys to your game plans. cheers!
Dale: Probably not then. Let me see where it is...
sgordon: Nice to see you James.
Dale: Bye for now James.
james: catch you all next week.
james left chat session
sgordon: I have the Mayan program.
sgordon: I need to take a closer look. Perhaps this weekend...
Dale: Basically since you want to change the name of Single Dragon, the rules, the way the levels are played, very little.
Dale: I have some music ready for it (I think).
sgordon: So you've developed a game engine for it?
sgordon: Or something like that...
sgordon: Some sort of multi scrolling background.
Dale: Well...
Dale: lets see. I've developed a technique for the scrolling background game...
Dale: I've designed a sample street scape.
Dale: I've made a prototype of the character walking around.
sgordon: And you needed help with the art work as I recall...
Dale: But the only graphic I have for a character that walks around is a turkey that walks.
Dale: I don't have any kicking/punching graphics.
sgordon: How many sprites make up the main character?
Dale: Yes help with the artwork and the game interaction...
Dale: ie the playability.
sgordon: Is he 16X32 in size?
Dale: With D&T I know the playability but not with Single Dragon.
Dale: The rules are more like 24x48 as I recall.
Dale: But with out any tradeoffs 32x16 is safe.
sgordon: Now this is an action game. Ever consider making an adventure game with this engine.
Dale: I wrote up a whole document describing what the exact restrictions are, but I may not have ever given it to you.
sgordon: Something like the old Sierra online games?
Dale: We jsut have to agree when we start on what sort of game it is going to be, make it a comfortable size, and sequals can add features.
sgordon: Or maybe a zombie game like Resident Evil.
sgordon: One of my personal favorite games.
Dale: They looked cool, but I'm not super familiar with them.
Dale: I'm not much of a game player.
Dale: I mostly am a programmer.
sgordon: Basically survival-horror is an adventure game with things trying to kill you.
sgordon: Instead of fighting street scum you're killing zombies and monsters.
Dale: Sounds a lot like most 80's arcade games really. <grin>
sgordon: You should really check out Resident Evil 2 for Playstation.
sgordon: Superb in every way and HARD!!
Dale: I'll try to remember to look it up.
sgordon: But that is probrably out of our range.
sgordon: What else have you developed for the game engine?
sgordon: You have a background scrolling routine...
Dale: Most of the recent Colecovision games by Marcel et al. are more classic arcade style games.
sgordon: You know first we should build the programming tools to assemble these games
sgordon: Or at least define the processes.
Dale: I'm not sure what that says, but Marcel does have a good C interface that we could use to work on the game, if you'd prefer.
sgordon: Are you sure that Single Dragon would be a good use of our time and resources?
Dale: Well, I have a library of interfaces to OS7...
sgordon: It's kinda been done to death already on other systems.
sgordon: Library of interfaces? Like what?
Dale: and the character mapped animation is designed but not yet implemented.
sgordon: We should try for something a little more original.
Dale: Just the basic OS calls really. The timer, music, joystick, video, etc.
sgordon: Hmmmm
sgordon: You have a copy of this I could look at?
Dale: I have a copy of Coleco Colecovision cartridge programmer's manual.
sgordon: Is it on the web?
Dale: It is in the download for Mayan.
Dale: You have it on your computer.
sgordon: Ok. Then I already have it.
sgordon: I will take a look at it.
Dale: With Mayan, it demos basically all of those mentioned above.
Dale: Including the scrolling background.
sgordon: There's a game I started awhile back based on the old Sierra Online games.
Dale: What is the best use of our time? For me it is 2 things: something novel, and something satisfying.
sgordon: It was a Halloween game where you are stuck in a haunted mansion and have to solve puzzles, etc.
Dale: That sounds cool.
Dale: How do you measure the value of your programming time?
sgordon: The game system comprised of full screen backgrounds with the user walking in between rooms.
Dale: (Oh one other thing, is that I also like to parctive all kinds of different design techniques to learn which one is the best for when I need to use it professionally).
sgordon: When they walk off the screen, a new background loads, etc.
Dale: That should read "practice".
sgordon: Programming time needs to be balanced and efficient so that I may do other things, such as artwork.
Dale: Doesn't that cause a lot of lag while the next screen loads?
sgordon: A challenge as well as an opportunity to learn is always important.
sgordon: Sure, but that was the type of game of it's time.
Dale: Sorry not a general enough question. How do you measure the value of a given Adam project with regards to the time you have available?
sgordon: On a hardrive, the loading could be almost instantaneous.
Dale: That's true at least.
Dale: Or under the emulator of course.
sgordon: For right now the project needs to be something that we can finish in a relatively small amount of time.
sgordon: Something that won't drag on for years, like Dragon Master.
Dale: That is a plan I can agree to. How comfortable are you with poking around in Z80? In C?
sgordon: For me, time is best served and rewarding by tackling a smaller project then building up to a larger one later.
sgordon: Z80 I know fairly well. I haven't touched C yet. But it is in my degree program, so there is hope...
Dale: Web design definately lends itself to that approach.
Dale: Okay so Z80 is probably a more efficent choice.
sgordon: Speaking of web design, I need to update my site!
Dale: I prototype in C because it is easy to convert to Z80 later and it is second nature to me most of the time...
sgordon: For Z80 right now I am programming with Word Pad and bringing it over on disk via 22disk.
sgordon: It's not a very efficient use of time.
Dale: I also work on Java applets quite a bit, and I will probably do a version of D&T as a Java applet as well, if I'm smart.
sgordon: But better than the alternative.
sgordon: Java is also in my program of studies.
sgordon: But right now it's all UNIX.
Dale: Well, follow the instructions on the Mayan page. I wrote them just for you really.
sgordon: Right now I am learning the finer points of vi.
sgordon: I'll do that.
Dale: vi is very handy once you get used to it.
sgordon: I'll make sure that I take a look at that this weekend.
sgordon: Sure. But very strange command structure.
sgordon: Not very intuitive.
sgordon: But I'm getting used to it.
sgordon: Sounds like we need to decide on a small project.
Dale: So if I want to hook up to you Sunday afternoon (which is a pretty good time for me, since Jill is at work then) how can we sync up?
sgordon: One that can take advantage of your programming skills and my, uh...
sgordon: Sunday?
sgordon: What time?
sgordon: We should also produce this under a joint label.
sgordon: Like Coleco^2
Dale: Something like 2pm Eastern or later.
sgordon: 2 pm = 12pm MST.
sgordon: Yeah, I could do that.
Dale: That's a possibility.
sgordon: 12pm Sunday afternoon?
sgordon: Er, 2pm EST?
Dale: Well, we'll try for 2pm Eastern. Of course the last 2 times we tried this it fizzeled. :-(
sgordon: Think of 5 small projects that you'd like to work on.
sgordon: And I'll do the same. Then we can brainstorm what would be an effective use of our time.
Dale: Sure. I think that Mayan is a really good base to work from for small projects.
sgordon: Ok. I'll familiarize myself with it.
Dale: Right now there is no game logic, but there is almost everything else.
sgordon: That would be a good starting point.
sgordon: Let me look at it.
sgordon: And get back to you...
Dale: Sounds perfect.
sgordon: Bring your ideas Sunday.
Dale: I will.
sgordon: Please do remind me.
sgordon: I'm afraid that I might forget due to my homework.
Dale: If you have trouble syncing with me my number is 416-225-5884
Dale: BTW,
Dale: I was talkting earlier on the chat about a new solid state IDE harddisk-on-a-chip.
sgordon: Wow.
sgordon: Tell me more...
sgordon: What exactly is it?
Dale: You can buy 80MB ones for little or nothing. I'm thinking that a slot 3 IDE card with a build in 80MB card would be an interesting hardware project.
sgordon: Built in drive?
Dale: They come in all sizes from 5MB to 256MB and work with IDE signals.
Dale: It is low power, and a single small chip.
sgordon: Can all of the 80 MB be utilized?
sgordon: Where can I read more about it?
Dale: Well, the current drivers for the Adam only use the first 64MB, but ...
sgordon: My dad might also help us with the planning and design.
Dale: there may be ways around that. That of course would become a software project, not a hardware project.
Dale: Hmmm....I'll have to look up the source and send you an email.
sgordon: When you say next to nothing, how cheap are you talking about?
Dale: I'm thinking that the IDE connector would still be on the board so that you could hook up an IDE ZIP drive or IDE DVD drive, etc.
Dale: If I recall correctly it was < $5
Dale: But it was almost a year ago I got the info.
sgordon: Are they still available?
Dale: he 80MB seemed the best choice.
Dale: They are a fairy new product, designed for embedded design.
sgordon: Sounds great.
sgordon: Kind of like a large smartcard?
Dale: Useful for all maner of embedded devices.
sgordon: Kinda, sort of...
sgordon: Think of the range of software that could come preinstalled on it.
Dale: But in a single IC to keep the cost low, and make the interface simle they used the well known IDE standard.
sgordon: Just need to design a board to put it on, right?
Dale: We are in a new era of embedded design being at the forefront.
Dale: I'm trying to work my way up to the new eZ80-USB based handheld Coleco Adam
sgordon: Could these chips be removeable?
sgordon: In the same vein as removable hardrives?
Dale: Yup. And since you have a design for the low cost slot 3 board, we could probably adapt it.
sgordon: Hmmm
sgordon: I have schematics to all of the old boards.
Dale: No the chips are not intended to be removable. They are intended to be perminant.
sgordon: I wonder if we could reuse a lot of the design...
Dale: The rep said that if you can do IDE you can use these chips.
Dale: Hardware is about reusing design.
sgordon: If you can put some info together, I'll approach my dad and ask what it would take to get it done.
Dale: I guess we need a parts list for the current design, and make sure that they're all still available.
sgordon: In terms of how many hours it would take to redesign the board to take a chip like that.
Dale: The nice thing is that since it is low power, you could probabl use it with out that bulky extra power cube.
Dale: If you have a CAD program designed for board layout, it should be something like a day's work.
sgordon: Manufacturing the board can get expensive, though.
sgordon: Yes, we have some form of CAD program.
Dale: For quantities of <10, you can do them at home using a kit.
sgordon: I'm not sure what the minimum quantities are.
sgordon: We could definitely build some prototypes.
Dale: For 50-100 you should be able to get a price of about $2-5 per board.
sgordon: What about the driver software?
Dale: The driver software would be identical to the existing IDE slot 3 card.
sgordon: Yeah, like about $500 in boards...
sgordon: Gotcha.
Dale: But MTAG and ANN are willing to buy some boards. I have about 10 local customers at the right price.
sgordon: What would be the "right price"
sgordon: $20?
sgordon: More?
Dale: It really would be a purely hardware project, and assuming that it works, you could sell about 20 within 12 months.
sgordon: I'd definitely want one.
Dale: I think that I'd target about $35US give or take.
sgordon: That'
sgordon: That's reasonable.
sgordon: Well Dale. Gotta go to bed.
sgordon: We can talk about this more Sunday.
Dale: We can compare a solution at Adam's House to make sure that it's competitive, but that shouldn't be a problem.
sgordon: Think of an obtainable project that you'd like to work on.
Dale: Okay bye for now. Gald you made it in tonight.
sgordon: And we'll discuss what we want to do later.
sgordon: Thanks Dale. You too...
sgordon: See ya.
sgordon left chat session
Dale left chat session
moved to room Meeting Place
changed username to Atomic Weasel
moved to room Meeting Place
changed username to Dale > chat > 2000-8-23
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