> chat > Thu 2002-12-26

Chat for Thu 2002-12-26 20:58:04

rich-c: test
moved to room Meeting Place
changed username to Pamela
Pamela: HI, Dad
rich-c: hello daughter
Pamela: looks like we're the early birds for a change
rich-c: checked your mail in the last two minutes?
Pamela: just got out, why?
rich-c: sent you five pictures of the jade plant
Pamela: oh, cool - hang on, I'm gonna go look
rich-c: wait -
moved to room Meeting Place
rich-c: when I checked there was a virus there too masquerading as a notice from Tamco
changed username to Scott
Scott: Helllllooooo....
Pamela: Hi, Scott
Scott: HI!
rich-c: hi Scot,, been a longvtime since you've been by
Pamela: Dad, I'm downloading and this may take a minute
Scott: Yes, I had classes on Weds :(
Scott: I couldn't come.
rich-c: ga Pam, I'll talk with Scott
rich-c: and this time spell his name right
Scott: Rich
Scott: Can you give me the address of the owner of the disk drive that my dad semi-repaired?'
moved to room Meeting Place
Scott: I still have it and need to give it back
rich-c: not sure it's valid any more; just send it back to me
changed username to Guy B.
Scott: What's your address?
Guy B.: Greetings!!!
rich-c: hello Guy
Scott: Hello
rich-c: Scott, I'm at : 21 Rondale Blvd., Toronto, Ont. M6A 1H6
Guy B.: Hi Scott. Done with the semester at school?
Scott: Oh yes. And it killed me...
moved to room Meeting Place
changed username to Edmonton
Scott: But I made it through unscathed...
rich-c: mark it "previously imported goods - returned from warranty repair - no charge"
Guy B.: Fantastic. When do you start the next one?
Edmonton: Season's Greetings to all
rich-c: allo Ron
Guy B.: Hi Ron
Edmonton: Everyone suitably turkey'd out?
Pamela: Hi, Ron, Hi Guy - Merry Christmas
rich-c: how's things in the Land of the Noonday Dark?
Pamela: Dad, those pictures came out really well - tell Mom it looks awesome
Edmonton: you kid not..... doesn't get fully light here till almost 9 am
Edmonton: Been sleeping in a lot
Scott: Guy - I will head back on the 13th
Guy B.: Oh, there will be another computer coming here to my apartment.
moved to room Meeting Place
Scott: I am about 1 year away from getting my Associates.
rich-c: that's OK, when I got up out at 8.45 our photocell porch light was still on
Guy B.: So, you can relax for a few weeks.
Pamela: Ron, are you enjoying your time in Edmonton?
Edmonton: think we are well above the 50th parallel
Scott: Kinda.
Scott: But I got suckered into this new project...
Edmonton: Very much so Pamela, thanks
changed username to Doc-In-A-Box
Guy B.: And what's that?
Edmonton: Winter is a pussycat
Scott: Resurrecting an old game that I was working on...
Pamela: Hi, Rich
Guy B.: Ok, we have a doc and it sounds like Dr. D?
rich-c: have you seen Daniel Bienvenue's work, Scott?
Scott: Originally for the ADAM, now will be a ColecoVision cartridge
Doc-In-A-Box: Any non-Canadians get the significance of my screen name? :-)
Scott: Oh yes, looking at it today, in fact.
Scott: Do you know of Eduardo Mello?
rich-c: good-o - Guy, what's this about a new computer?
Pamela: I'm not sure I get the significance Rich - I'm just good at guessing
Edmonton: what box?
Guy B.: I won a Dell XPS 400 from work.
Doc-In-A-Box: Boxing Day :-)
rich-c: -ing day, Ron
Scott: Eduardo just ported over an arcade-perfect version of Space Invaders I & II
Pamela: Ahhhh - okay, my brain never woke up this morning
Edmonton: whoa!
rich-c: neat-o, Guy - what are teh specs?
Scott: He will be releasing it as Space Invaders Collection.
Pamela: well done, Guy - congrats
Scott: It's pretty good.
Scott: There's a sample ROM on his site.
Scott: I have burned it to an EPROM and played it on the ColecoVision
Pamela: This must be the year for winning things - I won a Palm Pilot at my Christmas party
Scott: Works perfect.
Doc-In-A-Box: Sounds like fun.
Doc-In-A-Box: You've seen the PacMan CV ROM that surfaced last year, I presume?
Guy B.: Pentium II, 128mb ram, Windows NT, mouse and keyboard and a network card. Computer Support threw in a free office suite.
Edmonton: Well now, ah.... I got a free ADAM
Scott: Update - The plastic cartridge casings will be manufactured in Brazil, not Taiwan.
Pamela: and my mother-in-law won a 21" TV, DVD player and four DVDs in her local pharmacy Christmas draw
Edmonton: Wont be by the time I get it home, but it is now
Scott: Yes, Doc. A VERY NICE free ROM...
Doc-In-A-Box: Looks like I need to actually build the CV multicart I designed last year.
Scott: Eduardo wants to port a PacMan/Mrs. PacMan Collection next for ColecoVision.
Guy B.: Boy, would I love to see that done.
Scott: You drew up the design for a multicart board?
Doc-In-A-Box: Yes...let me see if I can resurrect the URL...
Scott: Is the bankswitching via special addresses or a physical switch?
Edmonton: brb
rich-c: isn't Daniel's design in effect a multi-game eprom?
Scott: I am looking into designing a larger cartridge board for later releases.
Scott: Eduardo is also interested.
Scott: Gotta run to the bathroom...
Doc-In-A-Box: Here it is:
Doc-In-A-Box: I'll wait 'til you get back from the WC to talk tech.
moved to room Meeting Place
changed username to BobS
rich-c: anyway, Guy, what will you do with the new unit?
Guy B.: Hi Bob
Pamela: Hi, Bob - Merry Christmas
rich-c: hello Robrt
BobS: MATE !!!!!!
BobS: Allo
Guy B.: I'm planning to link the Athlon and the Dell via a Network.
Pamela: Feeling English are we Bob?
BobS: uncle ronnie????????
BobS: roight mate
rich-c: he's done a brb
BobS: did ya get a new laptop from santa Guy?????
Edmonton: back
Pamela: I have this picture in my head of you saying that with a Michigan accent - that's cute
Edmonton: Merry Christmas to the Slopsemas
BobS: tell ya what they said in Jamaica !!!!! "irie mon"
Edmonton: you called Bob?
Guy B.: No, but I did sell the old one
BobS: meaning all si good, no problem, etc
Edmonton: indeed
BobS: a trip; berocmes ya Ronald
BobS: becomes
Edmonton: you should see this place I'm in.
moved to room Meeting Place
Pamela: oh?
BobS: good or bad???????
Edmonton: A tidy office with a single state of the art computer
Guy B.: Bob, I did win a computer. A Dell XPS 400 Pentium II
rich-c: I assume you flew via Calgary while the freight is taking teh bus back
Edmonton: bookshelves with books on them
BobS: kinda sterile isn't it???????
changed username to George
Guy B.: HI George
BobS: yo Geo
Pamela: Hi, George - Merry Christmas
Edmonton: feels strange
rich-c: hello George, your'e late - have trouble digging out of the snowbank?
Pamela: Don't worry, Ron, things will be back to normal shortly
Edmonton: yes Rich, that's the case. We fly, the ADAM will bus it
BobS: doc in a box..............
George: Hi Everyone
Edmonton: :)
Pamela: is Dr. D on Boxing Day
Guy B.: Has 128mb memory, Windows NT, Network card, mouse and keyboard. My Computer Support dept threw in a free office suite.
Edmonton: My sister is not like me at all - she's organized
BobS: i figured it was the analogy
Doc-In-A-Box: Haha...Merry Xmas, Bob.
Guy B.: I knew it was him all along.
BobS: ya sure mon
Pamela: You'll wear her down eventually, Ron
BobS: SCOTT wake up man
BobS: say HI
Edmonton: Don't think so. She's a psychologist
George: I was in the hospital
Doc-In-A-Box: You guys are too clever for me nowadays, I can't hide from you with silly names any more.
Guy B.: Finals wore him out.
BobS: and he went to sleep`?????
Scott: Ok, I'm back from the bathroom...
BobS: bummer dude
rich-c: what was teh problem. George?
Pamela: no, he went to the WC
Scott: Hello, Bob.
Doc-In-A-Box: Did you see the URL I posted, Scott?
BobS: Pam, that is not a wc it is a john
Scott: Yes, I have it.
Scott: Is it a physical switch?
George: I had a mild stroke
rich-c: stroke or TIA?
Edmonton: Anybody got a spare MIB3 card for sale?
Scott: Or bankswitched through special addresses?
Pamela: whatever
rich-c: yes
Doc-In-A-Box: Looking at it, I think that the A15 decode is least that's my conclusion after having stared at the Delta Game Board schematic for all those hours restoring it.
George: the doctors said it was a mild stroke
Scott: How does it bankswitch?
rich-c: if you're out this quick I'd guess teh emphasis is on mild
Pamela: how did it affect you George?
Doc-In-A-Box: Nah, the idea was to use cheap octal switches (SCSI ID) to select a particular offset into the ROMs.
Scott: Do you have to physically move a switch on the physical cartridge?
Doc-In-A-Box: You'd need a list of what octal numbers corresponded to which games.
Doc-In-A-Box: Yes, it would be on the cartridge. I haven't built one...just threw out that drawing as an idea.
Scott: What would be the theoretical maximum of the design (ROMwise)
George: i have left sided weakness i have trouble talking
Pamela: are you left or right handed, George?
rich-c: that sounds like a stroke symptom
Scott: George - sorry to hear that.
George: right handed
Scott: I am also saddened by the news of Pat Herrington.
Scott: Very saddened.
Pamela: we will miss her very much
BobS: avery scary deal eh Scott?
Doc-In-A-Box: Hmmm, would have to recalculate...but I think the ROMs are 512KB each. 3 are for 8/16K games, 3 are for 24/32K games.
rich-c: yes, that was an event we didn't need
Doc-In-A-Box: There was leftover space in each set, too, to accommodate new games.
BobS: cancer must have grown like gangbusters
George: i went to the hospital Friday i got out Christmas Eve
Edmonton: Bob, I still have her ADAMCON 01 T-shirt.... should I keep it as planned?
Doc-In-A-Box: Re: PJ, sigh sigh sigh.
rich-c: when it metastasizes to teh brain, it does
Doc-In-A-Box: And sorry to hear that you were hospitalized, George.
BobS: I think so.......Ron
Edmonton: guess I should ask eh?
rich-c: and it doesnt need to grow much to do terminal damage
BobS: maybe discuss it at AC15
Edmonton: I know she wanted it to follow us
Scott: Eduardo and I need a design for a larger board to support products that we will be putting out to the market.
Edmonton: Ya
Doc-In-A-Box: Breast cancer is very invasive and is detected almost always too late to stop.
Scott: I am working with Good Deal Games to get some products out the door.
Pamela: Hang on to it Ron - we'll do something special with it
rich-c: I believe PJ was expecting us to set a chair for her T-shirt at the banquet so she could join us in spirit
Scott: The first cartridge release from Good Deal Games is Cosmo Fighter 3
Edmonton: that was my understanding too
Pamela: Do we still have the '01 banner?
Scott: Space Invaders Collection Pack is a separate release
Edmonton: yes we do.. 01 and 10 are at my place
Scott: Good Deal Games (GDG) doesn't want to associate its name with it since the rights weren't obtained.
Scott: Eduardo will release it himself.
Scott: Oh, yes, Doc...
Doc-In-A-Box: The ideal (from a user standpoint) design would have some kind of LCD display screen and menuing system on the cart to select the games...but then the cart would need its own microcontroller and firmware and that makes it too complex for me to design with the limited time/experience I have.
rich-c: PJ was very pleased when I told her how we handled her absence at 14
Pamela: alright - let us contemplate that for a while and see what ideas we can come up with
Scott: I need some help understanding the how the OS talks to the joystick
Scott: This wouldn't be something that you know?
Scott: What are the series of steps?
Doc-In-A-Box: But a row of DIP switches is very inconvenient (not to say prone to rapid failure), so I thought the SCSI ID switches were a cute compromise.
Scott: Is there any way to bankswitch internally?
George: i had a bit of an emergency here in the apartment today
Scott: Such as add some additional RAM
Scott: And bankswitch based on special addresses?
rich-c: what happened, George?
Doc-In-A-Box: No, not unless you mapped out some magic I/O port to do it.
Scott: Eduardo seems to think its doable.
Scott: But I don't think he's thought it through.
Doc-In-A-Box: Remember, you have to have OS7 ROM+24K RAM in the low 32K address space, upper 32K is cartridge ROM.
Scott: I thought on the ColecoVision there was the 8K OS7 + 1K RAM + 32K ROM
Scott: With the 1K starting at $6000
Doc-In-A-Box: Well yes...I was thinking of the ADAM implementation where there is 24K RAM just because.
Scott: Oh yeah, and Doc - do you know anything about the controllers?
George: my neighbors in the apartment above me broke their toilet it flooded my bedroom and hall and maitance didn't want to come out and fix it
Scott: Sure - I am just thinking of the ColecoVision itself.
Doc-In-A-Box: place to start would be the OS7 assembly listing.
Doc-In-A-Box: Depends on how low-level you need to know about them.
Scott: Sure, I have a disassembly and am going through the code.
rich-c: boy, George, that's just what a guy fresh out of the hospital needs
Scott: It looks like there are three routines in OS7
Doc-In-A-Box: Ordinary stuff, the OS7 calls are sufficient to get joystick positions or button presses.
George: very bad luck
Scott: Do you have to set the strobe, then do an IN A, ($FC), then complement the value?
rich-c: a folks recovering from a heavy Christmas don't need crises
BobS changed username to JudyS
Scott: I have a smattering of documentation and am trying to piece it all together.
Doc-In-A-Box: If you feel like writing interactive firmware for menu select, you could do it...the default game reset of the multicart would give you a cart ROM that had the menus and other game selects.
Pamela: I see we've had a gender change - Hi, Judy
Doc-In-A-Box: That could do the magic bank switching internally, no external switches.
JudyS: hi, all, how was your Christmas?
rich-c: hello Judy - have a good Christmas?
Pamela: are you two still having network problems?
Edmonton: Scott, do you have the EOS Programmers Manual that Guy Cousineau wrote?
Scott: Hmmm
George: my holiday was a disaster
JudyS: yes, the network isn't working
Doc-In-A-Box: You'd just have to write what basically is a CV game that's the menuing would have the titles of all games on the multicart, and ability to select them using joystick and buttons/keypad to navigate.
Edmonton: If memory serves, there is explanation in there
Scott: Edmonton - Yes, I actually have an HTML version.
Edmonton: I'm being summoned by the rest of the family.
JudyS: need a computer guy to come in and find out what is the matter
Doc-In-A-Box: My design was to avoid writing firmware...sort of a "proof of concept".
Pamela: Our Christmas was lovely - a bit hectic and very white, but lovely
Edmonton: something about a movie and popcorn
Scott: My idea is breaking up an RPG into several chapters
Scott: Once at the end of the chapter, bankswitch to the next.
rich-c: aha, the quiet end to Boxing Day - family movies
Edmonton: guess I better bid you's g'nite
Pamela: already Ron?
rich-c: of course it's only half past seven for you
Scott: Important data could be saved up in VRAM
Doc-In-A-Box: It's easily just need a bunch of latches and a free I/O port that isn't used by either ADAM or CV.
Edmonton: I know, told 'em not to start until 8
Scott: But I wouldn't need any more than 1K for game data.
rich-c: OK Ron, see you Sat. or next Wednesday
JudyS: ours was great, watching the little guys open all those presents was something
Doc-In-A-Box: Note that CV steals everything $80 and up, because of cheap incomplete decoding.
Pamela: (Pamela pouts)
Edmonton: yup. adieu all
Doc-In-A-Box: Good night, Ron.
Scott: Good night, Ron
Edmonton left chat session
Pamela: Enjoy ron - see yo next week
JudyS: night Ron
Scott: What is the process of reading the joystick?
Pamela: Boy, you take a girl out of the office for a week, and she forgets how to type
Guy B.: HI Judy, didn't see you until now.
JudyS: hi, Guy how are you?
Doc-In-A-Box: It's several strobes out through various lines in the connector, trying to figure out a connection matrix. Just like decoding a keyboard, rows and columns.
George: test, i just got a bluescreen and survived it
Pamela: Hey Dad - it took me exactly 14 minutes to get home last night - door to door
Scott: Interesting
Guy B.: I'm good. Did Bob tell you that I won a computer from work? It's underneath my desk at work until I can come pick it up.
Scott: I
rich-c: considering the wet roads, you must have hit every light on the green
George: or did I/
Doc-In-A-Box: The design was optimized for minimum is really not obvious from either the schematic or the OS listing how it's supposed to work.
JudyS: no, good job
Pamela: actually took the 401 - I love driving the 401 on Christmas day evening - there's not a soul in sight
Guy B.: Finally! It's a Dell XPS 400 Pentium II
George: test
Scott: I'm trying to avoid disassembling all of the code, since it gets fairly complex deeper into the program.
Pamela: your here George
Doc-In-A-Box: The "ports" are implemented as discrete TTL, with incomplete address decoding as I mentioned.
Scott: But there might not be any other way.
George: ok
JudyS: that sounds like a winner, Guy
Pamela: that is a desktop, right Guy?
JudyS: did the roads improve, Dr
George: how did that happen?
Doc-In-A-Box: Only slightly better roads on the way home, Judy.
Guy B.: Yes, it's a desktop. A tower.
Pamela: did you get dumped on too Rich?
rich-c: I think Cleveland got a lot worse than we did
Doc-In-A-Box: About 6 inches Christmas Eve...translated into 2 hours of driveway shovelling.
Guy B.: It's about the size of my Athlon.
Scott: Also of interest, a company called Older Games is also interested in putting out ColecoVision software.
JudyS: I am glad we didn't get that snow Doc
Guy B.: Really?
Doc-In-A-Box: It was great snowball snow on Christmas Day, but now it's all icy/powdery and doesn't pack.
Scott: We could at least play these games in our cartridge slots on the ADAM.
rich-c: you must have a seriously humungous driveway, Rich
Pamela: Dad, did you ever find out how much snow we ended up with?
Guy B.: Got about three inches here.
Scott: Funny, we haven't had any snow in Denver.
rich-c: I think it was about 4 inches (10 cm) but there was some drifting
Scott: For weeks.
Doc-In-A-Box: Remember, we're a duplex...and it's a long run from the street to the back. I have to shovel the whole thing in order to get out, as we're the back half of the duplex.
Pamela: now that's ironic
George: i'm dizzy
Doc-In-A-Box: Maybe you ought to lie down, George...
Pamela: we got most of it between 5:30 and 9:00 a.m. I would say
rich-c: I actually did our shovelling myself -and with my bad hip, that's a triumph
Pamela: just about the time I was getting ready to go pick Russell up from work
George: i'm down
Doc-In-A-Box: I was hoping our neighbors might come out to help a little...they were home, I heard their stereo through the outside wall of the house...but no luck.
Pamela: Rich, do you not have a snowblower?
Doc-In-A-Box: Call it a Christmas present.
JudyS: we only got about 2 inches yesterday
rich-c: you should get a snowblower like mine, Rich - it's a little electric
Doc-In-A-Box: Nope...and this snow was so wet and heavy, it wouldn't have helped.
Doc-In-A-Box: Would need a 250-foot cord on it :-)
George: we escaped bad weather here
Doc-In-A-Box: Anyway, I didn't mind the exercise, it was just the time needed; it delayed our departure from Cleveland by 90 minutes.
rich-c: as long as it's not too deep, my mini-blowr will handle fairly wet stuff
Pamela: Did the girls help you shovel Rich?
Scott: What is the official date of the next ADAMCon?
rich-c: starts July 24
Doc-In-A-Box: I got out there before anyone drove on it, which was a *big* help.
Pamela: Since when have we set a date?
rich-c: tes, footprints and tire tracks can really mess things up
Doc-In-A-Box: Yes...I needed to ask Ron that! Joan needs to make summer vacation requests by 20 January 2003.
Scott: I may be bringing carts of Marcel Kogel's Cosmo Fighter 3.
George: it got too hot here all we got was rain
Scott: First official ColecoVision/Coleco ADAM release in ages!
Doc-In-A-Box: Not that she can come with me to Comox...
rich-c: I believe that's official but subject to confirmation'there is still one i undotted and t uncrossed
rich-c: count your blessings, George
Scott: I guess Dale Wick will be there...
Pamela: when did we decide this?
rich-c: in upstate New York they had to close 100 miles of teh Thruway
Scott: I will be in school at this time, but I will try to come.
rich-c: and a town north of Albany got three feet of snow
Scott: Where in Canada is ADAMCon being held?
George: i know
rich-c: Comox, BC
Pamela: Comox, BC - Ron is the host
Scott: West side?
Doc-In-A-Box: 24 July, huh? At least it's after our anniversary this time :-)
Pamela: on the island
Doc-In-A-Box: Your half of the continent, Scott.
Doc-In-A-Box: So we need to see you there :-)
George: i lost on the powerball too
rich-c: just fly to Calgary, WestJet flies dir3ect to Comox from there
JudyS changed username to Roberto
Pamela: only one winner on the Powerball, George
Roberto: EAST side
Scott: Sorry, but I am geographically deficient when it comes to Canada.
Scott: North of NY?
Scott: How far east?
Pamela: yes
George: tes wish it was me i need it bad
rich-c: well, it isnt like teh US, it's a BIG country ;-)
Pamela: : ))
Scott: Yes, yes...
Doc-In-A-Box: Gag, as if Americans didn't already have a bad reputation for geography knowledge...
Scott: Yeah...
Pamela: I have every faith that Scott will know how to find it on a map though Rich
rich-c: OK, Comox is on teh east side of Vancouver Island, off the west coast of British Columbia
Doc-In-A-Box: Not *east*, Scott, *west* on the Pacific Ocean west...
Scott: But hey, I do know where Yemen, Abu Dhabi and Kuwait are...
George: i got to pee
Scott: So I'm not totally inept.
Pamela: well you're one ahead of me then
Pamela: TMI George
Roberto: NORTH of seattle WA and onthe same island with beautiful Victoria !!!!!!
Doc-In-A-Box: Ha, a biochemist in our department used to have a "Ronald Reagan Map of the World" on a lab fridge that sat out in a public hall...the whole Middle East was a single entity marked "Our Oil".
rich-c: anyway Scott if you're lucky WestJet may even have a Denver-Calgary route
Scott: Really?
rich-c: WestJet is a Calgary-based discount airline serving teh west
Pamela: just BYO lunch
Scott: But what am I to do with my geographic shortcoming? Is this what we pay our schools to teach our kids???
rich-c: even if not you can bet "everyone" has a denver/Calgary service
Scott: I will have to check it out.
Pamela: Use the atlas Scott
Scott: Sounds like a pretty short flight
Scott: Since I'm kinda dead center in the country.
rich-c: well, by Canadian standards, it is
Scott: Maybe 2 1/2 hour flight?
rich-c: and since you'd break at Calgary, it would be two roughly similar parts
George changed username to George W.
Pamela: Dad, does WestJet fly out of Toronto or Hamilton?
rich-c: no, I would expect it to be rather more than that
George W.: my mind is slightly affected
rich-c: Hamilton at the moment (handy for Dr. D.) but Toronto is planned soon
Doc-In-A-Box: I just hope that the date is finalized soon, so I can start looking for as inexpensive flights as possible...I am presuming that the further in advance the reservation, the cheaper it will be (in general)? My last plane flight was to ADAMcon 11...
Scott: Well guys, I had better get off. My wife wants to view another fine Canadian product - The X-Files.
Doc-In-A-Box: I am hardly a veteran traveller.
Scott: We just got Season 6 on DVD.
rich-c: OK Scott, good to have you here - come back soon
Scott: A very expensive DVD.
Doc-In-A-Box: Ha...tell her the Blue-Nosed Greys did it :-)
George W.: nite Scott
Pamela: nice to see you Scott - Happy New Year
Scott: I will be back for this semester.
Roberto: be good scott
Scott: I don't have any classes on Wednesday.
Doc-In-A-Box: We were watching Doctor Who on DVD tonight.."The Five Doctors".
rich-c: we'll look forward to having you then
Scott: And plus - I'm working on two ColecoVision products.
Doc-In-A-Box: My Xmas present to Joan.
Pamela: you want to talk veteran travellers, Rich? Last time I was on a plane was 1986.
Scott: So I'm once again involved in the ADAM community indirectly.
Doc-In-A-Box: Yayayayay!
George W.: my DVD is taking a long rest
Scott: Oh yes, Rich I have some webspace.
Doc-In-A-Box: If I could spare 2 weeks, I'd take a train or something.
Scott: We can put The ADAM Resource back up
Doc-In-A-Box: Yay^2.
Scott: Along with your product catalog.
Scott: I have 100 MB
(Guy B. throws a hot potato at Roberto.)
rich-c: yes, I take a flight about every quarter-century, just to review the state of teh art ;-)
Doc-In-A-Box: I have no products :-) You must mean Richard.
Scott: It's paid for two years.
Guy B.: Figured you would be hungry.
(A strange smell wafts around the room)
Roberto: ouch !!!!!
Scott: I got a very good rate.
Roberto: nope, e=went to Red Lobster tonight
Scott: So let's get our ADAM content back online.
Doc-In-A-Box: I'd like to take a Lockheed Constellation...bright shiny aluminum...
(Guy B. gives Pamela a can of Diet Coke.)
Pamela: BRB folks, gonna go say g'bye to Russell
(S enjoys the flowers.)
Scott: Let me know if you are interested, Rich.
rich-c: no, but if you route through Vancouver you can get a Dash-8 to Comox, look out and see the fans turning
Guy B.: Tell Russell I said Hi
Doc-In-A-Box: Okay.
Scott: This is only like the 3rd time we've talked of doing this.
Doc-In-A-Box: Bye Russell.
Doc-In-A-Box: haha :-)
Scott: Ok, I'm gone.
Scott: *poof*
Scott left chat session
Doc-In-A-Box: <Scott is eaten by a Blue-Nosed Grey>
Guy B.: He's quick
rich-c: actually Scott I'm more interested in seeing you get the Adam Survival Guide up for reference
rich-c: that was a labour of love for many of us
Doc-In-A-Box: Speaking of survival...has someone got a complete collection of PJ's software?
Roberto: think I got most if not all, but short some docs
Guy B.: I believe I do
rich-c: don't know if it's complete but I have some inventory
Doc-In-A-Box: I'm thinking it's unlikely that she herself had it all any more...
Doc-In-A-Box: And is there a contact for the man behind the "Sol Swift" personna to do anything about PowerPaint?
Roberto: such as???????
Guy B.: She put out the Bold Glory collection, Chromantics, Yule Tide I think that's the name. I have to check to see what she released.
rich-c: the tricky part is she was handling Sol Swift's stuff
George W.: i'm laying here like a dead tuna
rich-c: she was teh only one he would talk to
Doc-In-A-Box: Well, to get rights to continue to make it available somehow...either paying him royalties, or releasing it into public domain, or something.
Roberto: which are basically PD for the ADAM community
Roberto: it WAS released to be used for the ADAM community as too any profits from sales
Pamela: I passed on your messages to Russell - he says goodnight to all
rich-c: yes, Pat's stuff is still commercial, but the Sol Swift items are pretty much abandonware
rich-c: though Alan Neeley may have feeling on that subject
Pamela: you're too late Bob, he's gone
Roberto: bummer girl
rich-c: anyway I do have teh right to reproduce some of teh Sol Swift titles
Pamela: that's okay, I'll tell him in the morning
Doc-In-A-Box: Short of deep pockets to pay for lawyers, I don't see any practical way to keep Sol's stuff from being treated as if PD, now that PJ is not around.
Guy B.: Well, I do have SLP that was a demo to Niad that Sol Swift never released commercially.
Doc-In-A-Box: E.g., if Terry Fowler started to sell PP, nobody really could stop it.
Pamela: all this stuff will become part of her estate, right? and won't Bob control her estate?
Doc-In-A-Box: It's all "courtesy" at this point, Pam...there's no real money to be had, by anybody.
Roberto: he IS sellling Powerpaint and there is nothing we can do about it
Roberto: GUY what is SLP ??????
Roberto: Swift Label printshop was a commercial seller
Guy B.: Swift's Label Printshop
Roberto: I bought the sucker
Doc-In-A-Box: Hmmm...maybe I should create a copyrighted derivative work from PP...disassemble it, fix it up, change it some to make it different.
Roberto: is good too
rich-c: yes, I think I have SLP available
Doc-In-A-Box: But it would be lots of work, and the paying audience would be limited to those who log into these weekly chats...
Roberto: have at it rich, but kind of hard to inprove most does evertthing we want
Pamela: yeah, but the issue isn't money, it's who owns the rights
Doc-In-A-Box: Yes, but rights without $$$ reward are of no value.
rich-c: well, Sol Swift is American and still around, so he owns the rights
Guy B.: That is a very good label program. I've used that a lot. Now I have to get back to redesigning the labels I saved.
rich-c: he simply allowed PJ to act as his agent
Guy B.: The question is where is Sol Swift?
Pamela: so if they're of no value, then the issue is moot, is it not?
Guy B.: It should be.
Doc-In-A-Box: Yes, but if he's in the huscow and not able to follow developments in our little kaffee klatch, then he might as well not exist.
Roberto: velly gut quession
rich-c: his whole point in usign PJ as an agent was that no one would know
Doc-In-A-Box: In practical terms, yes Pam.
rich-c: of course that wasn't his ral name, it was Lawrence something - PJ told me once but I forgot
Doc-In-A-Box: PP is of value only to us remaining dedicated ADAMites.
Doc-In-A-Box: There are no intellectual property ideas in it that are unique or of value to current computing platforms.
Roberto: Sol Swift was a stage name for Digital Express
rich-c: right, and I can produce all teh copies I want and forward teh royalties to Bob
Roberto: then to the successor he was in cahoots with Tony Patterson
Doc-In-A-Box: Indeed, the whole first 8K of it or so is a binary image of the SmartBASIC 1.0 interpreter--a hack to get floating-point math routines and trig functions to draw circles.
Guy B.: I never met him. But, I believe he attended the first Adamcon, since I do have a video that Niad shot from there showing him demostrating GoDos.
Roberto: that's the deal Richard
Roberto: would have to llok, but don't recall that Guy
Roberto: look
rich-c: well, he was a waif Tony Paterson took in, a decision he came to deeply regret
Doc-In-A-Box: Hardly a "clean-room" procedure...if it were worth real $$$, lawyers for Lazer Microsystems or their heirs/assigns would be all over it.
Guy B.: I don't know who it was then. I wasn't come in to clear. But, I saw a guy with a beard.
Doc-In-A-Box: Heck, I was offered a chance to put SB1.x into the Mark I Tricorder...but I declined, because there is too much Lazer Microsystems code in SB1.x to take the risk that a zillion Tricorders would be sold and someone would find out where the BASIC came from.
Roberto: an INTERESTING idea Guy..........Meeka has some ADAMCONM pics for Ron, etc put up.........
Doc-In-A-Box: Selling to a few hobbyists, nobody will care if it's done quietly .
Guy B.: BRB, lost the rest of the text.
Guy B. left chat session
rich-c: sorry folks!
moved to room Meeting Place
changed username to Guy B.
Guy B.: OK, I'm back.
Doc-In-A-Box: Selling to millions something that you don't own in an ironclad legal sense...trouble.
Roberto: think ron started at AC02
Pamela: I'm thinking that was a wise course of action, Rich
rich-c: yes, now that PJ is gone, Dale is the only one left who has been to every Adamcon
Doc-In-A-Box: I mean, at this point, technically selling any software that isn't actual new/used copies of Coleco stuff (i.e., duplicates), for any price, is certainly illegal.
Doc-In-A-Box: "But I only charged for media/postage costs!" will not stand up in court.
Doc-In-A-Box: If someone is motivated to press the issue.
Pamela: Motivation is usually based on profit, and there isn't any value in pursuing it otherwise
rich-c: yes, I agree, that's why I tend to be very careful about my dealings even in the group
Pamela: (Man, I gotta go back to the office - I've forgotten how to type)
Doc-In-A-Box: But nobody in general cares about ADAM if Mr. Fowler can get $50 for a dupe disk of PP, then nobody can stop it...not without shutting down even someone like Richard.
rich-c: somehow or other I doubt TF is getting many sales of PP at any price
Doc-In-A-Box: If the ADAM ever became a hot collectible, then all this stuff would matter.
rich-c: that's fine, but I made a point of geting permissions so I can trade cleanly
Doc-In-A-Box: But right now, the ADAM is the backwater of the 80s microcomputer boom.
Doc-In-A-Box: And when you can no longer find a human who has the rights to give the permissions...what do you do?
rich-c: at the current rate of sales, I'll be gone long before my stock of vendor supplied and packaged software is
Doc-In-A-Box: If stuff *isn't* copied illegally, it will get lost and disappear. The CP/M source that you can get from Caldera exists only because of illegal copies of DRI stuff obtained under original non-disclosure agreements.
Guy B.: And most of the software that were released in the that error are showing up as abandonware.
Doc-In-A-Box: When DRI were bought by Novell, DRI delivered all their source code to CP/M...Novell promptly lost when they sold the "rights" to Caldera, there was no code to give them!
Guy B.: That's era.
Doc-In-A-Box: Companies have a notoriously poor record of keeping their own history.
rich-c: true, but there are a lot of copies of old software floating about
moved to room Meeting Place
changed username to BobS
BobS: durn battery crapped out
BobS: talk, talk talk
rich-c: oh, Roberto is now among the missing?
Guy B.: We should get rid of the Roberto then.
Pamela requested to ban Roberto
Doc-In-A-Box confirmed ban
BobS confirmed ban
Guy B. confirmed ban
rich-c confirmed ban
BobS: never never land, eh??????
rich-c: down the memory hole
BobS: slurp !!!!!!!
Pamela: One thing I notice is that whenever someone asks about a particular piece of software, someone, somewhere usually has a copy of it
Doc-In-A-Box: There's a very bitter lady who hangs out on alt.folklore.computers who worked at DEC on the TOPS10 machines...she got sick and put together a complete archive of all TOPS10 source and docs before she had to leave for medical reasons...the next generation of DEC management actively destroyed it all, because (impolitically) it was better stuff than the annointed successor systems, TOPS20 and VAX.
rich-c: some day I really must sort through teh some f3ew thusand Adam software discs I have...
George W.: i'm stuck in a hole
Doc-In-A-Box: Consequently, there is stuff that is indeed gone forever.
Guy B.: Now I have a question. Even though Coleco is out of business and there are still software that they released prior to their bankruptcy. Who gets any money from the sales of their software?
Pamela: well if Ron were here, he'd say - backup, backup, backup
rich-c: unless whoever illegally accessed and copied the archive has yet to surface...
Doc-In-A-Box: There are no retail places selling Coleco software.
Doc-In-A-Box: Places like Funco might still be selling ColecoVision game carts.
BobS: Telegames.........
rich-c: the vendor who holds the stock, or whoever he in turn sold it to
BobS: but that is only games I belive
Doc-In-A-Box: No ADAM stuff, I am sure.
Guy B.: That I know Dr D. What about what Rich Clee has in stock?
rich-c: if you bought it from someone who had it in his legitimate possession, you can re-sell it freely
BobS: it is legal and saleable
Doc-In-A-Box: Richard is hardly Office Max or Radio Shack or CompUSA or PC Mall...
Pamela: unfortunately . . .
rich-c: true, but if you want say Logo original and unopened, I can oblige...
Doc-In-A-Box: None of the ADAM software titles were ever ported to different machine architectures, or left any software descendants.
BobS: but then again, possession is not all that is legal, ask novell...or microsoft, they indiscrimately have Ebay pull listings for software sealed in boxes
Guy B.: Then that answers that.
BobS: just because they can threaten Ebay
Doc-In-A-Box: So except to historians (or us), the stuff doesn't exist.
rich-c: I would say that MS and Novell can't do that legally
Doc-In-A-Box: There is no corporate memory that the ADAM existed, except perhaps a vague recollection that it was a bomb.
rich-c: they can threaten that if you can't prove legal possession, they will hold eBay rsponsible as agent
BobS: IF someone wanted to go after a second party seller, ADAM'S HOUSE would be the perfect target
BobS: Terry is stilll among the living, so that is proof that nobody cares
Doc-In-A-Box: Speaking as a biologist, the ADAM represents one branch of the great microcomputer adaptive radiation that is completely extinct.
rich-c: I do believe that Herman and George investigated some sort of action
Doc-In-A-Box: It has no intellectual or commercial descendants.
BobS: I agree about the legality, rich.....but they are threatening Ebay into cooperating
rich-c: I suspect MS has some interesting contract language in its EULA's that bar resale
Doc-In-A-Box: Nobody will care unless "This Old House" does a show about building an ADAM computer shack addition to some trendy house and it inspires a boom trade in ADAMs...
rich-c: remember MS does not sell software - they only sell licences to use a single copy in a single agreed place
Pamela: Hmm, think we should ask Bob Vila?
Doc-In-A-Box: ...or an ADAM appears as a prop in some blockbuster movie and everyone wants to get one then.
(An Adam tape drive whirs noisily.)
Doc-In-A-Box: Could it happen? Sure. But I think me winning a zillion bucks in a lottery without me buying a ticket is more likely...
(With a crash, a shelf full of books collapses.)
BobS: sounds like Geo is BUSY
Pamela: darn cat . . .
Doc-In-A-Box: If I could suggest a theme for the next 10 years of ADAM, it would be "preservation".
Pamela: conscientious preservation
Doc-In-A-Box: Collect, catalogue, duplicate, Great Library of Alexandria with one copy of everything, but it all vanishes when Cairo is sacked...
rich-c: or Frances has to clean our basement...
Doc-In-A-Box: My basement is too much like the Great Library...
rich-c: you've seen mine; need I say more except that it's even fuller now?
BobS: basementszx are supposed to be that are they not ??????
rich-c: they're better if you don't need an alpenstock to get around in them
Pamela: and the real reason for the cane emerges . . .
Doc-In-A-Box: Canes are for use upon young whippersnappers :-)
Pamela: brb, folks
rich-c: I suspect I have in every area the largest and most complete Adam archive extant - possible excpetion, TF
rich-c: that by the way includes enough newsletters to overfill a standard 80-lb book carton
George W.: any freebies?
BobS: got some of that stuff meself Richard.............kind of neat to read the old newsletters from ADAM's infancy
Doc-In-A-Box: Then Pam needs to produce you some grandchildren who can be trained to spend hours scanning it all in :-) :-) :-)
rich-c: I've told you, George, you can have a printer for the postage
George W.: oh, I forgot
rich-c: prudent of you to wait for her to leave, Rich...
BobS: huh??????
Doc-In-A-Box: haha...hope I'm not inadvertently stepping into a mess...the joke was just too good to pass up.
BobS: shane and thirty wacks with a wet noodle to you Dr D
BobS: shame
rich-c: just hope she doesnt go back to read what she missed
BobS: no lie
Doc-In-A-Box: Like I said...if you all know something I don't, I apologize.
BobS: tain't maybe it won't.........
George W.: my mind is going bad recently
BobS: who knows, a personal thign that
rich-c: primaparas pushing 40 are rare
BobS: si senor
rich-c: the fact usually reflects the existence of an agenda of some sort
George W.: i keep forgetting my ATM card in the machine
rich-c: that is not a smart thing to do, George
BobS: hey everybody !!!!!!! BTW Geo just hwere is you atm located......we ARE on the way !!!!!!
Doc-In-A-Box: Well, Pam knows where I live, if she wants to order a hit man...
George W.: it causes havok when i try to search for it
rich-c: be careful, she may be talking to one of your daughters on another line
BobS: well just cancel it and get another one
Pamela: okay, what am I supposed to not read?
BobS: George ne3edsa hlp with an ATM card he lost
BobS: needs
Doc-In-A-Box: <snicker>
BobS: help
Pamela: I don't need to produce kids for that, Rich
rich-c: <tactful silence>
BobS: call Manpower !!!!!
George W.: that's not funny
rich-c: long as he doesnt have his PIN written on it
Doc-In-A-Box: I didn't think you'd want to get stuck with all the scanning.
Pamela: gee, it's awful quiet in here . . .
Doc-In-A-Box: I have all the potential labor here, but none of them are interested...
Pamela: well, if Dad asks for help, he shall get it
Doc-In-A-Box: All too busy playing Gameboy Color games that S. Claus brought them.
rich-c: just got to train them a little better, Rich
Pamela: however, I have a large labour rate . . .
Doc-In-A-Box: If you have any suggestions on how to inspire girls to be programmers, I'd like to hear it.
Pamela: ask Jillian?
Doc-In-A-Box: It's very un-PC to say, but my experience at home and at CWRU is that girls don't want to program or play with computers.
rich-c: explain to them that they can write their own games in SmartLogo, and give them a copy
Doc-In-A-Box: They will play someone else's game, but they don't want to write their own.
George W.: another year shot to hell
BobS: tis true Geo only 6 more days to screw up and then we get 365 NEW ones to try !!!!!!
Doc-In-A-Box: The girls that do...again, very un-PC, but they are definitely not your "girl" types.
Doc-In-A-Box: I wish it weren't so!
BobS: say it ain't SO !!!!!!
Pamela: PCness aside Rich, I agree - most girls aren't programmed to think that way
rich-c: on the other hand, Pam, your mother is a more frequent programmer than your father
George W.: what is a girl?
Doc-In-A-Box: If 4 girls can grow up with me as Dad and a basement full of working ADAMs and not one of them have the slightest interest in what goes on under the hood...sigh.
rich-c: the portion of the species more deadly than teh male, George
Pamela: despite the great strides we've made in the last hundred years, women are still not expected to be scientifically aware
Pamela: translation - don't piss us off
rich-c: well, you're aware and interested enough in what goes on under teh hood of a car
Pamela: well, to give the younger two credit Rich - they haven't had much time yet
rich-c: but what goes on under the hood of a computer - yo don't want to know
George W.: gender is over rateed
rich-c: what's the difference?
Pamela: that's not strictly true, Dad - I'm less interested in what makes it tick than I am in what it's capable of
Doc-In-A-Box: I think that there are hardwired gender differences in interests.
rich-c: I'd mark that as a conditional truth, Rich
Doc-In-A-Box: Of course there is variation...
George W.: tell that to a transsexual
rich-c: here we go into nature vs nurture again
Pamela: I want to know what kind of chip it has, how much memory, what it's possible uses are, but I don't necessarily want to know how it does all that
Doc-In-A-Box: but aside from in literature, I don't see any human societies that have arisen in which women are as interested, or more interested, in technical stuff as men.
rich-c: on the other hand, I want to know enough of what's going on that when it screws up I have a hope of fixing it
Doc-In-A-Box: It can't all be evil conscious domination of men by women...
Doc-In-A-Box: though that certainly has occurred.
Doc-In-A-Box: oops, switch that (Willy Wonka)
Pamela: to give credit where credit is due Rich, generations of women have allowed it to happen
Doc-In-A-Box: But that's why I think it's hardwired genetic, because there had to be some kind of survival advantage to "giving in" that way, unegalitarian as that is.
Pamela: along the lines of "quick, someone do something about it . . . oh, I'm someone"\
rich-c: maybe females long ago figured out they had bigger issues to deal with so left the tech stuff to keep the brute amused
Pamela: evolution is a hard thing to contradict
Doc-In-A-Box: When Achilles was hiding out among the women, how did Odysseus find him? By showing up as a merchant: the girls looked at the jewelry, while Achilles fingered the swords. 1200 BC at least.
rich-c: "oh, the computer's acting funnay again, dear - could you look at it" - sotto voce "and get the hell outa my kitchen111
Pamela: gender relations and bias are such a complex issue to deal with
BobS: you guys should go on broadway !!!!!!!
George W.: who has the wonky computer?
rich-c: perhaps with a production of Lysistrata?
Doc-In-A-Box: I think that the best we can guarantee is equality of opportunity: if you're interested in something, nobody will stop you; but if you aren't, nobody will make you do it in order to enforce some 50% gender quota.
rich-c: right, male nurses are necessary and desirable, but women still have the overall edge
Doc-In-A-Box: The best female programmer is no worse than the best male programmer...the best male chef is no worse than the best female chef.
Doc-In-A-Box: Nursing is a bad example.
Pamela: Equality of opportunity is all women have ever asked for. Noone is denying that there are some things that men are more suited to physically - let's face it, they're stronger, bigger and taller. It's the implication that women are somehow mentally inferior that has annoyed us for so many years
George W.: time for the hillbillies
Pamela: "don't worry your pretty little head about it" is a line designed to infuriate women everywhere
Doc-In-A-Box: In my mom's day, a smart woman could be either a teacher, a nurse, or a librarian. Other paths had huge hurdles, so most didn't try. Thus, teachers, nurses, and librarians were super well-done jobs.
George W.: what about a lesbian?
rich-c: yes, keeping up to the competition in those fields was not easy
Pamela: what does sexual preference have to do with it, George?
George W.: everything
Doc-In-A-Box: Now, there are far fewer barriers...and the smartest women can make more money as doctors, lawyers, or engineers. Teachers, nurses, and librarians are jobs for people who can't be doctors, lawyers, or engineers! I saw this first-hand the 2 years I taught freshman nursing students. I was very sad to see it!
Pamela: do tell, I'm all ears
George W.: can a lesbian be president?
Doc-In-A-Box: My freshman nurses were about 200 SAT points below the other incoming CWRU freshman women , all other majors.
rich-c: I think you may be misreading a few things, Rich
Pamela: why not? what does her sexual preference have to do with how well she can run a country?
Pamela: and, what business is it of anyone's?
Doc-In-A-Box: My nursing students were the B students of their high school classes, for the most part. The A students were off doing premed or engineering.
Guy B.: Well folks. I'm be going. Now, how are we going to handle next Wednesday being New Years Day and all the college football bowl games are going to be on?
George W.: in this country they will never elect a lesbian president
rich-c: Forgot about that, Guy - shall we do the Thursday thing again, then?
Pamela: never is a long time George, and you didn't answer my question
BobS: sounds good people
Doc-In-A-Box: In Finland the President is a woman with a common-law husband (no wedding, long-term relationship). The Finns don't care; the woman is very competent.
BobS: THURS it is
Pamela: Thursday is okay by me
rich-c: OK here
George W.: ther are too many biggots
Doc-In-A-Box: Sure, Thur.
Doc-In-A-Box: (ooh, a rhyme!)
BobS: got to be hitting the hay too here. see you in 7 days, eh????????
Guy B.: Kind of wondering if everyone is going to be out doing things. So, why don't we be on the 2nd of January then.
Pamela: yes, but you still haven't answered my question
rich-c: hey, our Governor-General was sworn in before she married her long-term companion
Pamela: Night Guy, Night Bob
George W.: what is that?
Guy B.: Ok, I'll be here then.
Doc-In-A-Box: Bye Guy and BobS.
(A dog howls in the distance)
rich-c: nite, Bob and Guy
BobS left chat session
Pamela: what does her sexual preference have to do with her ability to run a country?
Guy B.: I'll see you all next Thursday. If I'm not here on Saturday. Happy New Year to all and be safe.
Pamela: Happy New Year, Guy
rich-c: same to you, Guy - Sat it is with luck
George W.: the biggots won't let her
Pamela: that's not an answer George
Guy B. left chat session
Pamela: I'm not going to let you off the hook on this
George W.: yes most certainly is
rich-c: for teh moment George is right - you must remember he lives in a deteriorating society
Pamela: no, he's dodging the issue Dad
rich-c: no, daughter, you're missing the point
Doc-In-A-Box: I frankly don't care what relationships people are in, as long as they are consensual and not exploitative.
rich-c: he is not talking about inherent competence, he is talking about electability, which is a social matter
George W.: when they kill someone like Mathew Sheppard I call that stopping someone
Pamela: no, you're missing the point. I asked a direct question. What does sexual preference have to do with ability?
Pamela: I still don't have an answer on that
Pamela: and that was the original question - can a lesbian (or for equalitie's sake, a homosexual of either gender) be President
George W.: you can't run a country if you are assinated
rich-c: are you assking that to question competence or electability?
Doc-In-A-Box: People who are threatened by same-sex relationships, I just don't get it.
Doc-In-A-Box: There are too many "normal" heterosexual relationships going bad in our society! It's pot calling kettle black!
Doc-In-A-Box: Just cause it's not for me, doesn't mean it might not be the thing for other folks...just like what works for me doesn't work for them.
Pamela: thank you Rich, and obviously there are some people who just don't get the point I'm making - that sexual preference is irrelevant to ability to do anything
rich-c: I don't understand what satisfaction there is in a gay relationship, and it seems a bit futile, but that's their problem, not my business
Pamela: whether someone is gay or straight is irrelevant, and frankly, no one's business except their own.
Doc-In-A-Box: There are good straight people...bad straight people....good gay people...bad gay people....I think that goodness or badness is uncorrelated with gender preference.
Pamela: George, you have any more comments?
George W.: be gay for a week see if you see things from a different point of view
Pamela: how do you know I'm not?
Doc-In-A-Box: I'd rather see a gay person married for life to one partner than promiscuous heterosexal behavior. YMMV.
rich-c: we're well aware, George - a number of Adam people are gay - the one you would know is Michael
George W.: never heard of him
rich-c: he has been on here once in a while when you have been on
rich-c: you will likely see him again, from what he says
rich-c: the programmer who did "Adam Bomb" came to an Adamcon with his boyfriend
George W.: i don't know
Pamela: exactly my point
rich-c: we were upset because teh boyfriend didnt want to join in many activities
George W.: aren't you married?
Pamela: Yes. I happen to be hetero, but that is my point. You never know
Pamela: and sexual orientation has nothing to do with ability
George W.: those i know don't stay married
rich-c: not wholly true - for some reason a disproportionate number of creative and srtistic people are gay
Pamela: so, to go back to the original question, do I think a lesbian could become President, or a world leader ofany kind, yes I do. Easily.
George W.: you are dreaming
rich-c: you're wrong, Pam, right now anyway
Pamela: we're talking apples and oranges here people
rich-c: at the moment the US is a cowering, fearful, hate-driven society -they even fear normal people
Doc-In-A-Box: 50% of new marriages in the US will end in divorce...not a very good track record. Religious leaders of all stripes are no of the assistant pastors in our church is divorced...our world-class organist and music teacher is divorced...yet these seem to be "good" people.
Pamela: we're comparing ability to do the job versus electablility
Doc-In-A-Box: Electability has zero to do with job competence...witness our last n Presidents...
Pamela: is a lesbian (or a gay man) electable? No, not at this time.
rich-c: exactly - right now in the US, competence can never be determined because electability prevents any test
Doc-In-A-Box: Indeed, it seems that true competence and electability are inversely related.
Pamela: On that point, we agree.
rich-c: yes, that does seem to be the case, Rich
Doc-In-A-Box: The process of election actively selects against those who are most competent to do the jobs...mostly because they can see through the BS of electability and won't play along with the party.
rich-c: the America I see today is not the one I was born into and so long admired
Doc-In-A-Box: I always say, "Nobody will ever elect me Philosopher-King, but if I somehow got the job, I'd be far better than the clowns who are able to get elected."
George W.: elect me i'm incompetent as well as incontinent
Pamela: and you have a sense of humour!
rich-c: my point of view exactly, Rich
Doc-In-A-Box: Put a potty chair behind the desk in the Oval Office, nobody could see it on TV. They couldn't see FDR in his wheelchair :-)
rich-c: and Geogre, does it interest you to know that a number of our Members of Parliament are openly and noisily gay?
Pamela: ah, but will we live to see any of them become PM?
George W.: i never saw one
rich-c: in fact, we have at least one ward in Toronto where if you arent gay you cant get lected
Doc-In-A-Box: It's clear that a large proportion of the Roman Catholic clergy in the US are gay and doing terrible harm in their various attempts to repress it.
rich-c: well, one of teh gays is running for the leadership of the party
Pamela: well, that's a whole different kettle of fish, Rich
George W.: that seems to be true in Mass.
Doc-In-A-Box: I personally think that God has better things to do than worry about the sex of your sex partner...he *does* care, however, if you're abusive or exploitative.
Doc-In-A-Box: But I'm no theologian.
George W.: but they killed witches too
rich-c: gay, or simply repressed? the majority of pedophiles apparently are not gay
Doc-In-A-Box: Some are undoubtedly in the church to try to cleanse themselves of "unclean" thoughts...but this probably works for both gays and straights.
Pamela: I'd say that's a reasonable assumption, Rich
Doc-In-A-Box: Married clergy all around would probably alleviate this tension.
Doc-In-A-Box: If you want to be celibate to express your devotion, fine. But to require it...
Doc-In-A-Box: Why set yourself up to fail?
rich-c: all religions seem to have some pretty weird beliefs, but that's more pernicious than many
Pamela: and what qualifies a man who has never been married to give marriage counselling?
George W.: i'm losing my mind
Doc-In-A-Box: It is not ignoble to avoid trouble...there is no added benefit to throwing yourself on purpose into tempting situations just so you can pull back and say "See how strong my will is!"
Pamela: on the contrary, George - I'd say you're right here
George W.: remember i just came back from a stroke
Pamela: yeah, but your sanity is not in question
George W.: everything else is
Pamela: I'll accept that
Doc-In-A-Box: My ability to stay awake is getting to be in started at 6 AM, and so does I'd better get off to bed soon.
George W.: and i go back for a scope tomorrow
rich-c: so are you going to curl up in a ball and let them kick you to death, or are you going to go down fighting?
Doc-In-A-Box: Hopefully not go down at all.
Pamela: tomorrow is coming on way too fast and you're right, it's going to be a 6:00 am day for me too
Pamela: yuck
Doc-In-A-Box: Before I forget to ask, Pam...have you seen TTT and/or HP2?
rich-c: sounds like time to pack it in - for those interested, we'll try as usual Saturday
George W.: ok
Doc-In-A-Box: Saturday we will probably be at TTT again, this time with Elanor in tow.
Pamela: HP is scheduled for Monday and don't know when we'll see either TTT or ST: Nemesis yet
Doc-In-A-Box: Nemesis, ugh, all people whose opinions I value who've seen it say it's awful...
Doc-In-A-Box: So I'm not going to go see it.
George W.: let me take my last drink
Pamela: Russell's schedule is so screwed up right now, it's impossible to plan anything
Doc-In-A-Box: You will enjoy HP.
rich-c: Goodnight George, Rich, Pamela
Pamela: I fully expect I will.. If it's even half as good as the Philosophers Stone, I'll be happy.
Doc-In-A-Box: Good night, Richard.
Pamela: Night, Daddy. Sleep tight.
rich-c: See you all Sat or Thurs, as teh case may be
Doc-In-A-Box: Well, Pam, not sure if we followed up on last week's topic...but it was still something serious, eh?
Pamela: I'll let you know next week, Rich
George W.: nite Everyone
rich-c: meanwhile, happy new year
Doc-In-A-Box: Bye George.
rich-c: nite now
Pamela: and those are the most fun - I love a good debate
rich-c left chat session
Pamela: Night George.
George W.: happy New Year and Kwanza
Pamela: Happy New Year
Doc-In-A-Box: Hailing frequencies closed, sir/ma'am.
Doc-In-A-Box left chat session
George W. left chat session
Pamela: Nite,Rich - until 2003.
Pamela left chat session
moved to room Meeting Place
changed username to Daniel Bienvenu
Daniel Bienvenu moved to room not at my desk
Daniel Bienvenu moved to room Meeting Place
moved to room Meeting Place
changed username to rich-c > chat > Thu 2002-12-26
Send comments to I am Dale Wick