> chat > Wed 2005-12-21

Chat for Wed 2005-12-21 21:01:15

rich-c: verify
moved to room Meeting Place
changed username to C Daniel
C Daniel: hello
rich-c: salut Daniel
C Daniel changed username to Daniel
Daniel: ca va?
rich-c: comment ca va?
Daniel: je vais bien. juste un peu de stress.
rich-c: well, the cardiologist said I do not have congestive heart failure at present
rich-c: and I go to see the respirologist tomorrow
rich-c: any particular reason for the stress or just the season?
Daniel: preparing the house for the visit... it's the holidays period as usual
rich-c: we do not do much to note the holiday, though I put some rope lights outside
Daniel: Are you the first online tonight?
rich-c: also have a fibreoptice tree on teh front porch
rich-c: yes - one might say as usual; I try to be punctual
rich-c: maybe it's because I am th4e most talkative, I need to get started early ; - )
Daniel: you are very ponctual. I miss some chat sessions lately
rich-c: I missed one a week or two back because we went to a r3estaurant with one for Frances' chat groups
rich-c: actually a bulletin board, works sort of like a delayed chat
Daniel: I saw that Dr.D talked last week about a "bunch of new coleco head-to-head games", I saw them too, but only online at the web site
rich-c: ah - I am as you know not into games but I still am glad to keep posted on what the gamers are doing
Daniel: you favorite game is freecell i think.
rich-c: yes, of course that's a DOS game, not Adam - or rAther there is no Adam version
Daniel: I saw many professors at the university playing the freecall playing card game when they had free time.
rich-c: I use it for mental relaxation after a long stretch online or when waiting for someone to show up for chat, for instance
rich-c: the game can be challenging, though I have it fairly well mastered now
rich-c: my winning percentage is now up to 84% which considering it includes teh learning period isn't bad
Daniel: that's very good. I think mine is under 30%... I need practice. ;-)
rich-c: I am well practiced - that average comes after over 4000 games (mon Dieu, what sort of obsessive am I becoming?)
Daniel: it's a passion, not an obsession. :-)
rich-c: depemds on whether you're talking to me or Frances ; - )
Daniel: well, to be an obsession you have to say "sorry dan, I really need to play freecell now, bye"
rich-c: oh, you mean instead of just running it while waiting for a reply, then minimizing?
Daniel: it's an obsession when you can't think of something else, even in your dreams.
Daniel: how many freecell games did you play when dreaming?
rich-c: well, I don't dream about it and unless one has me baffled I rarely think of a game
Daniel: so, it's not an obsession. you simply like this game.
rich-c: yes, you might understate things that way 8 - )
rich-c: how are thngs weatherwise down your way?
Daniel: it was very cold today, and we had about 30cm of snow friday.
rich-c: we haven't seen a reading over freezing for a week and a half or more, though daytime highs have been close
rich-c: we were supposed to get a big blizzard Monday but it fizzled out
Daniel: before forgetting about that, let me say... "Joyeux NoŽl Rich et France"
rich-c: et en retour, Joyeux Noel et Felice Nouvell Annee a vous, Daniel
Daniel: Bonne et heureuse annťe ŗ vous aussi
Daniel: meilleurs voeux (best wishes)
rich-c: yes, we will need them in the yer to come, but we are hanging in there
rich-c: btw, Pamela sent me an email earlier to say she would be very late if she came on at all
rich-c: but I wonder whre all teh rest of the gang have got to
moved to room Meeting Place
changed username to Judy
Daniel: Hello Judy
Judy: Hi, everyone, Bob can't get in tonight
Daniel: Joyeux NoŽl Judy et Bob!
rich-c: oh, what is teh problem? not health, I hope!
Judy: Merry Christmas to you also, Daniel
Judy: no, computer
Daniel: he had this computer problem today?
rich-c: say no moe - we ubderstand completely 8 - )
Judy: gives him the opening screen but doesn't go any farther
rich-c: has he invented an entirely new swear word yet?
Judy: just with the chat
Daniel: Well, my monitor overheat, it smell burned but I still can use it tonight to chat with you.
Judy: nothing new!!!
Daniel: the problem forced my computer to reboot today
rich-c: sounds like maybe he's got a problem with his Java program, then
Judy: he says he has a problem with something
rich-c: overheated monitors give me the willies - they have a nasty habit of catching fire at the most inopportune times
rich-c: actually, I'm rally sort of waiting (I shouldn't say hoping) for my monitor to break
Judy: I take you want a bigger one
rich-c: I want a new LCD unit but my tightwad nature says no I can't have it as long as the current CRT is working
rich-c: since my CRT is only 17", the smallest (17") LCD they're selling now has more screen area - nothing hidden under the frame
Judy: I see
moved to room Meeting Place
changed username to BobS
Judy: there he is
Daniel: I don't have money to buy a new monitor. if it burns, it's too bad
BobS: damn computers
rich-c: by the time this goes likely the smallest LCD on the market will be 19"
Judy: if all else fails try another computer
BobS: last week it worked..........
BobS: this week nothing
rich-c: ah, Roberto, you got the machine fixed, did you?
BobS: been trying off and on for the last hour
BobS: nope got a different laptop
rich-c: I was guessing it might be your Java runtime
BobS: don't knpw what that is
rich-c: aside to Daniel: if used monitors are priced in Quebec like they are here, you can get a good working CRT very cheaply
rich-c: well, you'll just have to fiddle with it and see what you can do
Daniel: I hope you know that java runtime is the virtual java machine to execute java applications on your computer.
Daniel: it this java runtime didn't work properly, it may crash anytime for no logic reason
rich-c: yes, and Microsoft doesn't approve of it and makes it difficult to use
BobS: about ready to kill it and start a problem with macromedia.....blows things up until uninstalled
Daniel: macromedia is a big cause of crash for me and many many PC users
rich-c: doesn't play nicely with teh other plugins, eh?
BobS: ah ha
BobS: and WHY is it aproblem????
Daniel: I never play macromedia things when chating with you
rich-c: I hve heard as much but don't know which programs it picks fights with
BobS: well it picks fights with just about everything
Daniel: well, it's unstable... the ocx file to play the macromedia flash baners can't handle many flash windows at the same time. so it crash
rich-c: so far - knock wood - I've had very little trouble with conflicting programs
BobS: haven't had any problems in the past
Daniel: I just typed the keywords in google and the first link is "Flash.ocx crash with IE"
BobS: hmmmmmmmm
rich-c: hmmmmmm indeed
BobS: I don't understand just what hapened to tick off macromedia.......I htought I had obtained a virus or something
BobS: we installed multiple virus checkers and none found a thing
BobS: any time i respond to installl it, I get a few screens dnt then BAM,,,,,problems and ie starts over
rich-c: maybe it just doesn't like your running more than one antivirus at a time - that's a no-no, after all
rich-c: that isn''t one where you have to turn off all your defnces to install it, is it?
BobS: nope
rich-c: I seem to recall that Firefox keeps asking to install a new version every so often and there's no reboor or anything involved
rich-c: most programs want you to kill everything running before installing
rich-c: and a lot want a reboot after being installed
BobS: father in law blew up aol........can't get that working either....may kill both computers and start over
Daniel: it remembers me this guy who think that his ad-aware installation give him bad viruses. the reason is that when scanning, the antivirus pop up with a virus warning message. he didn't realized that ad-aware unziped a file and when reading them some files were already infected but the anti-virus didn't detec the virus into the zip file.
BobS: both are really stareting to tick me off
rich-c: from what I've heard it isn't your fault, it's AOLs most likely
BobS: aol installs and then updates (naturally) but can't install the updates beczuse of missing files....think pop deleted some
rich-c: I can see where a less computer literate person might be misled, Daniel
BobS: and some very computer literate sones too probably
BobS: ones
rich-c: does sound like an uninstall and start over to me, Bob
Daniel: well, this guy is a programmer and the guy to call when the network is down.
BobS: uh huh
Daniel: ... at the university
rich-c: meanwhile, Frances is working on her guru papers for the Amiga
BobS: to do what with????
rich-c: she had a big problem - it wouldn't recognize her graphics card, or Syquest drive, or CD reader on bootup
moved to room Meeting Place
changed username to Guy B.
BobS: oopsw
rich-c: she battled through item by item and got all three working but it was a serious challenge
Guy B.: Seasons Greetings!!!!!
BobS: THAT could make her MAD
rich-c: hello Guy, you're a bit late tonight
BobS: ALLO Guy
rich-c: no, it made her determined - she reacts that way
Daniel: Joyeux NoŽl Guy
Guy B.: I was at my mom's Christmas Party. I would have been home sooner. The elevator there had problems.
rich-c: she just put nose to grindstone and nibbled away fault by fault till she got it sorted out
BobS: oh oh ya didn't get stuck did you????????
rich-c: yes, our ranks are a bit thin tonight
Guy B.: No, but had to wait about 20 minutes when it got working again.
rich-c: btw Pamela sends her apologies but she'll be VERY late if she checks in at all
(rich-c gives Guy B. a can of Diet Coke.)
BobS: ok......but she will misss a LOT
Daniel: I think she can't be as lat as I was last week.
BobS: you miss everyone Daniel ?????
moved to room Meeting Place
changed username to Dale
Dale: Hi all.
Guy B.: Thanks Rich. Had one Ron Mitchell made a plea not to schedule the con for the first two weeks in August.
Guy B.: Hi Dale
Dale: Merry Christmas.
rich-c: that's OK, teh week before that by teh time I got on everyone had gone home
Daniel: yes, I was online just in time to say goodnight to Pam and Dr.D
rich-c: hello Dale, merry Christmas
Daniel: Joyeux NoŽl Dale!
BobS: and Jill and Jeffery
Guy B.: Jeffrey getting excited with Christmas 4 days away?
rich-c: yes, Ron has a priority obligation then - I have ambitions to be in Wisconsin Aug. 28th but whether they will be realized is anyboay's guess
Dale: We were away for a week, and then I've been working like a dog. But it is now basically too late to fix any orders and ship them before Christmas, so I came home early.
moved to room Meeting Place
changed username to james
james: good day
Guy B.: He told me about that.
Guy B.: Hi James
rich-c: good morning james and merry Christmas
Dale: Hi ya James.
Daniel: Joyeux NoŽl James!
BobS: GOOD for you Dale
james: how is everyone?
moved to room Meeting Place
BobS: HI James
changed username to Ronald
rich-c: fix any orders? you mean for software?
Guy B.: Hi Ron
Ronald: evening
BobS: Rona also !!!!!
Daniel: Hi Ron!
Ronald: 'tis I
Daniel: Joyeux NoŽl Ron!
BobS: man....we are blessed this christmas!!!!!!
rich-c: hello Ron, how's the left coast?
Ronald: merci, monsieur
Ronald: wet
BobS: lleft out
Ronald: windy
BobS: but no snow, right?
Dale: I'm doing greeting cards and calendars etc for a couple of retailers. I'm the go to guy to make the systems work faster when they're behind.
Ronald: had more about 3 days ago, but it's gone now
Ronald: instead we
Ronald: are being drowned
Guy B.: We are finally getting a thaw.
Dale: They've been behind since US Thanksgiving :-(
rich-c: is your system a part of the U.S. operation then?
Dale: I hear lots of feet of snow in parts of Japan.
Dale: Are you affected James?
Dale: We do fulfillment for our US and Canadian customers. All big retailers.
Dale: We can keep up with normal volumes of orders, but sales always bury us.
Dale: We've had two big sales this month, with the promise of at least one more coming up after Christmas.
BobS: busy business is GOOD business
rich-c: good - I hope they pick the right stuff to put on sale - I want a Casio camera
james: yeah, very affected
BobS: how much snow you have james????
Daniel: I don't have news about the pcbs for the minigames multicart project.
james: we've been getting dumped on the last few weeks. have already gotten something like 2x the seasonal average and we're just getting straterd
james: uhmm.... lots
Ronald: wow!
rich-c: even with all teh picturees of Mount Fuji and snow monkeys, one doesn't picture Japan as a snowy place
Daniel: "Record snowfall blanketed parts of Japan over the weekend killing at least nine people and disrupting transport, with the weather agency warning that more snow was on the way."
Daniel: "Nearly two meters (6.5 feet) of snow piled up in Fukui on Sunday, with the weather agency forecasting another 70 centimeters (2.3 feet) to fall by Tuesday morning."
rich-c: w2ell looks like you'll have a nice quiet family Christmas, james, if no one can travel
BobS: we are more than double our season total for this season and over 60% of total snowfall and it is just starting winter
rich-c: yes, in fact today is the solstice, isn't it?
BobS: think so
rich-c: I think we're double average too but our December average is quite surprisingly low
james: solstice or not it's been winter here for 3 weeks as far as i'm concerned
Dale: I think it's late this year -- early tomorrow morning our time at least.
rich-c: yes, I think we'd echo that sentiment on this side of the Pacific
Ronald: sun hanging high over the tropic of ??
rich-c: nevertheless, the sun will be turning around and coming back - let the Saturnalia begin!
Ronald: cancer or capricorn... (my grade 4 geography fades)
james: i was going to say capricorn but i don't know
rich-c: ditto james but at leasst we have a 50% chance of being right ; - )
Ronald: ya got me pilgrim
Ronald: It would have been Moms 89 birthday
rich-c: I'm sure someone will be off Goggling it any second
Ronald: Goggling eh?
rich-c: my keyboardd can't spell - you may have noticed
Dale: Daniel, I've been using ICVGM to draw lots of artwork.
Ronald: mein noither
Dale: Version 3.03. I really like the rotate dispite your reservations.
james: heh heh, assumign we're choosing from correct answers
Ronald: what's your line of work Dale?
rich-c: well, with only two pissabolities, we have a shot
BobS: Dale is a PROBLEM solver of computer proportions
Dale: I make online ordering systems for ordering prints, calendars, greeting cards, and novelties from your digital pictures.
Ronald: aha!
rich-c: continent wide, yet
Dale: I designed the original system, and love optimizing/problem solving, so at peak times I work extra hard.
Ronald: So if I wanted a coffee cup with my picture on it distributed world wide, you could help me set that up?
Dale: Absolutely.
rich-c: and there 9s no computer program yet written that can't be improved, right?
Ronald: hmmmm
Dale: Every program contains at least one bug and one line of redundant code.
rich-c: that's among those that can be coaxed to work at all....
Daniel: Dale, still didn't like the blinking color?
Ronald: someday I am going to write a book about everything that annoys me from the world of software
rich-c: you wont live long enough, Ron
Ronald: not necessarily bugs, but design decisions that I don't like
Dale: In practice it was useful of course, but I'd prefer it didn't blink unless the cursor is near the colour bar.
Daniel: I'm not sure what to do about it
Dale: If you want ot take a look at some of the stuff I drew, check out:
rich-c: in fact you'll get diverted just into teh program you're using to write with - all 47 volumes
james: ron.. that might be quite the marketing challenge ;)
Dale: It is some artwork for the project I described at AdamCon10.
Dale: Use the numeric keypad to flip through screens 1-6.
rich-c: great heavens, ancient history!
Ronald: Like, for example, Nero 6's vain assumption that I'm going to want to use it and only it to play my multi-media files .... so it changes all my multi-media icons
Ronald: irrespective of what program originated them
Dale: Left fire button for the racoon and hockey stick.
Daniel: error 404 :
rich-c: never used Nero - and your report wouldn't encourage me
Dale: It sometime takes me a while to get around to working on my projects Richard.
BobS: I remember that Dale....isn't that scary?????
rich-c: yes, I was vaguely aware of that, Dale ; - )
Dale: I drew all of the art while I was on vacation, in the quiet evenings while Jill and Jeffrey were napping after an intensive outing.
Ronald: You're not alone Dale
Daniel: but this one works :
Ronald: If I had actually completed everything I'd thought of doing over the years, my life would be vastly different
rich-c: I think we're all charter members of Club Procrastination
Ronald: Do NOT today that which can be put off until tomorrow
Ronald: right Bob?
james: tomorrow is today's biggest timesaver
Dale: Silly me...I'm always doing that.
rich-c: and do not put off to tomorrow what can be put off till the day after
Ronald: true
Daniel: Dale, did you still have the fmt_err message when compiling with getput library?
rich-c: actually, now that teh football and racing seasons are over, I am getting the odd thing done
Ronald: Dale, are you self employed?
Dale: Anyway one of the questions at AdamCon 10 is why is the method that you use to draw the screens so much work. My answer at the time is that there's no handy tool to prepare them.
BobS: right mate
Dale: Daniel asked me to test his handy tool for making graphics, so I thought it would be a good test of that.
Daniel: in the adamstreet.rom file, is it a chicken? a turkey? an ostrich?
Dale: Daniel, usually I get that error. It doesn't seem to matter that I know of.
Dale: Turkey.
Dale: Hockey playing turkey.
Daniel: that's a really big turkey
Ronald: no - it was supposed to be a race horse, but it looked like a dog to me
Ronald: :)
Ronald: Dale and I agreed to disagree
Ronald: believe I might be thinking of a different screen
Dale: It is a big turkey, but the world is scaled for him to be a main character.
Dale: I think I've worked on variations of this turkey walking around since 1987. But I always make some progress, and put it away again.
Dale: The race horse is from AdamCon 17.
Ronald: yep
Ronald: I have no imagination
Daniel: race horse , hockey turkey, rabbit making salads.... what could be the next project, and which animal will be the main character?
Ronald: Marvin the Martian
james: sorry, i have to burn a backup of a dvd. i'll try to come back shortly
james: if i don't, have a good christmas and new year
Daniel: talk to you later james
Ronald: us heat James
Ronald: use heat, I mean
Daniel: Oui, bonne annťe ŗ toi aussi
rich-c: if you run overtime, james, merry christmas and happy new year
BobS: see ya james
BobS: and hope for NO SNOW
Ronald: Merry Christmas James
Dale: Merry Christmas James.
BobS: who is she?????????
rich-c: yes, Frances is researching a new project now
BobS: funnylst name.........
Ronald: sister of HAPPY XMAS
james: oui, a vous et votre aussi, dan
Ronald: he can't stop laughing
rich-c: she wants to convert our vinyl records to CDs
Daniel: :-)
Ronald: leave 'em on vinyl, they sound better there
rich-c: this is not s easy as it sunds, apparently, as one is going from analogue to digital
rich-c: but they don't lasst as long and are less portable, Ron
BobS: nothing is EASY
james left chat session
Daniel: keep the vinyl records even after the CDs... there is always a better technologie to save "old" data to new supports.
rich-c: that's automatic, Daniel - ALWATS keep teh originals
Daniel: yes, when it's possible
rich-c: when you're stubborn enough, it's possible. We're stubborn enough
BobS: naw...YOU ?????
rich-c: it is easier of course if we can just buy CD duplicates on teh market
Daniel: I have a couple of cassettes and floppy disk... lost many data and programs I made when I was young... megnetic band didn't keep all the data.
rich-c: yes, I think we all experienced that, Dale ; - (
rich-c: the problem is there doesn't seem to be any equivalent of the old Schwann catalogue on the internet
rich-c: no master list of all recordings "in print", so to speak
Dale: I have a much nicer walk cycle somewhere else. Need to find it still.
Dale: or seem to be the nearest equivilant, I'd guess.
rich-c: Frances also says the phonograph player can't provide teh needed input for out laptop
rich-c: or, the laptop isn't equipped to accept it
Judy: check on Ebay they have almost everything
Ronald: Doesn't have a headphone Jack Rich?
Dale: You need a pre-amplifier from a turntable normally.
rich-c: yes, I believe teh phono player has one, Ron
rich-c: our turntable comes with pre-amp
Ronald: then you go from there to the "line in" on your computer
BobS: AND PRESTO !!!!!! sound IN
Ronald: on your computer you need a recording program that will produce a Windows Media file or mp3
rich-c: that will be somewhere on the audio card?
Ronald: I've done that with some cassette tapes
Dale: Just need an appropriate cable, with micro jack and phone jack on each end.
Ronald: yes. Most audio cards have a plugin - usually 3 or 4 of them
Dale: On the audio card, or motherboard.
BobS: and THEN????
Ronald: one for mic in, one for speaker out, and one for line in
Ronald: some have an "aux" line in which might be a different impedance
Dale: Line in is the way to go, if you have a pre-amp built in.
BobS: taped some songs off the computer the other night. now I need to perfect the system.......
BobS: need to buy a dedicated cable I think
rich-c: well, the laptopo has mic in for sure, one other I can't recall
Ronald: the other night, I decided to see what was going on musically in the current top 40 world
BobS: and??????
Ronald: ended up with an audio stream separated into individual MP3 files - occupying something like 620 Megs
rich-c: isn't the necessary software in Windows Media Player or suchlike?
Dale: Then you use your "favorite" recording software to prepare the tracks as stereo wave files sampled at 44kHz.
Ronald: a CD of music that I'll probably end up giving to Jeff
Dale: Then cluster them together as a audio CD (using your "favorite" CD burning software).
Ronald: Windows Media Player will play it, Rich, but I've found it's better to get a 3rd party recorder.... they're usually downloadable
Guy B.: Well Folks, got to go. Merry Christmas to All and see you next week.
rich-c: any particular suggestions - anyone?
BobS: same to you guy.......HAVE FUN mon
rich-c: merry Christmas Guy; see you next Wednesday
Ronald: I'll e-mail you Rich, one that I use (name escapes me now and it's over on the Duron)
rich-c: btw Dale I hope this is being logged!
Ronald: it's free, and downloadable
Dale: The built in software isn't as good at editing as I'd prefer. Lots of audio editing software for $30 or less.
Guy B.: Poof
Guy B. left chat session
rich-c: look forward to it, Ron
Ronald: yup
Dale: I like Nero for recording and preparing a audio CD, but there are lots of alternatives.
Ronald: on the Mac I use Sound Studio ($25 US)
rich-c: it will take us forever, but even if we do one a day, that's almost 400 in a year
Ronald: actually OS X (Tiger) now includes it
Daniel: I had Nero as an EOM software with my DVD burner
Daniel: limited and restrictive but works fine
Ronald: I found NERO handles my TV card best... produces better quality video than the software that came with the ATI card
rich-c: I have B's recorder gold, and a couple of otehrs, and something on teh desktop I haven't identified yet
Dale: I bought Nero ultimate or Nero platnum or something. It includes lots of extra tools for preparing all types of CDs or DVDs.
rich-c: just so wee can get teh music copied to a CD, that's fine with us
rich-c: we'll even buy CD replacements where they are duplictes of the originals (same performance)
Ronald: got Nero 6 Ultra edition here
Daniel: I had a couple of Sega Dreamcast CDs... Nero didn't copy them, I had to use another tool.
rich-c: I assume the Best Buy bunch aren't much on classical or backlist records, Dale
Dale: It just depends, but not as comprehensive as amazon for sure.
Daniel: the copied cds wasn't equivalent to the original
Daniel: ones
Dale: Anyway, I'd better go.
rich-c: are amazon still as creepily curious about your every move as they used to be?
Daniel: goodnight Dale
Dale: Bye all. Have a good Christmas.
Daniel: Joyeux NoŽl encore et Bonne annťe!
Ronald: niters Dale
Daniel: keep me informed of your projects!
BobS: merry xmas Dale
rich-c: night Dale - merry Christmas and a happy New Yor to you and the family
Judy: night everyone and have a very Merry Christmas
Dale: No problem Daniel.
Dale: I have managed to verify the schematic for the PCB.
Ronald: Merry Christmas Judy and Bob.... are we meeting next week?
rich-c: no reason why we shouldn't si there?
BobS: AND to all ADAMites everwhere !!!!!! INCLUDING especiallay all of you .......MERRY CHRISTMAS and see ya next week
BobS: ya mon NEXT week
Judy left chat session
Ronald: supper
rich-c: right back atcha, Bob and Judy - have a great one
Ronald: I've got dinner with cousins in Edmonton
Daniel: Bye Bob!
BobS: say HI to france3s and Pam and the xmas thing
Ronald: so I probably won't make it
Dale: I've got to verify the card edge connector, to make sure that I wired it up correctly.
Daniel: Joyeux NoŽl et Bonne annťe Bob et Judy
BobS: well try if possible to say I
rich-c: know the problem Ron, but we will hope...
BobS left chat session
Dale: Then I'll decide if I want to try one or 100 to start :-)
Daniel: Meilleurs voeux (best wishes)
Ronald: we'll see.... I'll try
Ronald: be well all. Merry Christmas to all
Daniel: way to go Dale! 100 is a good start
rich-c: merry Christmas and good night then, Ron
Ronald: :)
Daniel: :-)
Dale: poof
Ronald left chat session
Dale left chat session
Daniel: Well, it looks like it's time to say goodbye
Daniel: Have fun with freecell.
rich-c: guess it's time I took off too - joyeux Noel et feleice nouvelle annee, a tous deux
Daniel: joyeux noŽl et bonne annťe encore!
rich-c: colur me gone
Daniel: bye
rich-c left chat session
Daniel left chat session > chat > Wed 2005-12-21
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